Question for Dogtown Tom or others re Transfer

FITASC · April 16, 2022, 04:49 PM

This is the scenario; hopefully there are a few possibilities.
I live in Florida
Have a friend who lives in PA but is snowbirding in GA for several months
Wants to buy my expensive Beretta shotgun

Normally, simplest solution is he pays me, I ship to his PA FFL and he does the transfer when he gets home. Except he wants to have it now and bring it home with him.

I suggested the following:
We take the gun to my small LGS where I technically put it on consignment and he buys it from the LGS. Issue, LGS (a current LEO Captain) says no because PA is not a contiguous state. Now, when I had my FFL in the 80s/early 90s that issue had gone away.
(LGS says just do the deal in the parking lot, happens all the time; sorry but no, that IS illegal).

Second possibility, since he is currently residing (although temporarily) in GA, that I bring the gun to a GA FFL and we do the deal there. Issue (in my eyes) , he and his wife are in a RV park for the time here so no utility bill or anything else to prove current GA residency - so is that a possibility?

Third???? Is there something else I am missing?

TIA!

dogtown tom · April 17, 2022, 02:07 PM

Quote:

FITASC

I suggested the following:
We take the gun to my small LGS where I technically put it on consignment and he buys it from the LGS. Issue, LGS (a current LEO Captain) says no because PA is not a contiguous state.

Your dealer is an idiot. A massive idiot. (and has been for decades)
The "contiguous state" restriction disappeared in 1986 due to FOPA. Thirty six years ago.

Florida law clearly allows nonresidents to acquire rifles or shotguns as long as the firearm is legal to possess in the buyers state of residence:
https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx

Quote:

Now, when I had my FFL in the 80s/early 90s that issue had gone away.
(LGS says just do the deal in the parking lot, happens all the time; sorry but no, that IS illegal).

See why I said he's a massive idiot?

Quote:

Second possibility, since he is currently residing (although temporarily) in GA, that I bring the gun to a GA FFL and we do the deal there. Issue (in my eyes) , he and his wife are in a RV park for the time here so no utility bill or anything else to prove current GA residency - so is that a possibility?

For the purposes of acquiring firearms, ATF says a person is a resident of a state in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that state. He can show that intent by having a government issued photo ID showing his name and current address. If that ID does not show his current address, additional government issued documents showing his name and current address may be used. A utility bill must be from a government entity, not a commercial business. Hunting or fishing license, a letter from any city/county/state agency, etc.
What WILL NOT WORK: utility bills from a business, cell phone bills, bank statements, ID cards or badges issued by a business.

Typically, RV'ers will find it impossible to meet this requirement. Where your drivers license is issued, where you get your mail, vote, own or rent property or what you may consider as your "home"....doesn't matter under federal law. Active duty military can have two states of residence, the state where they actually reside and the state where their permanent duty station is located. Again, what that soldier or the military considers as his "home state" is irrelevant.

Of any ATF Ruling, "State of Residence" is by far the most liberal. All one has to do is actually live in that state with the intent to make it your "home". You can show that intent by having the above documents.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...dence/download

I see the options as:
1. Find a Florida FFL, that will facilitate a private party transfer from you to your friend. Instructions for the dealer is on the Form 4473.
2. You take or ship the firearm to a GA dealer who can do transfer to the buyer.

In either case, the onus is on your friend to answer the questions on the Form 4473 honestly. IMO, for the purposes of acquiring a firearm, he is not currently a PA resident, but a resident of Georgia.

**44 AMP** · April 17, 2022, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Active duty military can have two states of residence, the state where they actually reside and the state where their permanent duty station is located. Again, what that soldier or the military considers as his "home state" is irrelevant.

I'm sure you're better informed on what is current than I am, but I'm wondering if things have actually changed or if I'm not understanding your terms the way you mean them.

Back when I was active duty (70s) servicemen had a "home of record" which was where ever their home was when they enlisted. And that didn't change unless the solider specifically had it changed. Duty stations were not "permanent" (in the sense that they never changed) but did qualify as legal residence for ATF purposes, all you needed for proof was your orders assigning you there. (TDY duty stations did not qualify).

Am I missing something here??

**JohnKSa** · April 17, 2022, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Am I missing something here??

Nope, you said exactly what he did, just in different words.

Quote:

Duty stations were not "permanent" (in the sense that they never changed) but did qualify as legal residence for ATF purposes, all you needed for proof was your orders assigning you there. (TDY duty stations did not qualify).

Duty stations are indeed "permanent" if they are not temporary duty stations--which is what TDY station stands for.

FITASC · April 17, 2022, 08:16 PM

Thanks DogTown..............Appreciate your input
As well as everyone elses

TomNJVA · April 18, 2022, 09:46 AM

Not sure if this helps, but Example 2 below may be useful here:

From: ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2014

§ 478.11 Meaning of terms.

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual’s State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

April 16, 2022, 04:49 PM	#1
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Question for Dogtown Tom or others re Transfer This is the scenario; hopefully there are a few possibilities. I live in Florida Have a friend who lives in PA but is snowbirding in GA for several months Wants to buy my expensive Beretta shotgun Normally, simplest solution is he pays me, I ship to his PA FFL and he does the transfer when he gets home. Except he wants to have it now and bring it home with him. I suggested the following: We take the gun to my small LGS where I technically put it on consignment and he buys it from the LGS. Issue, LGS (a current LEO Captain) says no because PA is not a contiguous state. Now, when I had my FFL in the 80s/early 90s that issue had gone away. (LGS says just do the deal in the parking lot, happens all the time; sorry but no, that IS illegal). Second possibility, since he is currently residing (although temporarily) in GA, that I bring the gun to a GA FFL and we do the deal there. Issue (in my eyes) , he and his wife are in a RV park for the time here so no utility bill or anything else to prove current GA residency - so is that a possibility? Third???? Is there something else I am missing? TIA! __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

April 17, 2022, 08:16 PM	#5
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Thanks DogTown..............Appreciate your input As well as everyone elses __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

April 18, 2022, 09:46 AM	#6
TomNJVA Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2014 Location: Floyd, VA Posts: 242	Not sure if this helps, but Example 2 below may be useful here: From: ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2014 § 478.11 Meaning of terms. State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual’s State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition: Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y. __________________ In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.