The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 7, 2022, 04:11 PM   #26
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 10,006
Quote:
The probability of hitting an intended target. Other than that it all entertainment, winning a match, breaking a record and all that.

-TL
I have to admit I've always liked the "Hathcock theory" that there is only one shot that counts--the first cold bore one.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 02:30 PM   #27
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 5,072
Bart B...just curious, is there an actual, technically correct answer to your original question?
DaleA is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 03:43 PM   #28
kilotanker22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2012
Location: North Central, PA
Posts: 2,041
According to Oxford Languages, accuracy as a technical term is defined as:

"The degree to which the result of a measurement, calculation, or specification conforms to the correct value or a standard."

To me, this means that the measure of a rifle's accuracy should be considered as how reliably you can place a bullet within a predetermined proximity to the point of aim.

Precision is:

"Refinement in a measurement, calculation, or specification, especially as represented by the number of digits given."

To me, this represents group size, or the measurement obtained from firing a number of shots and the relation of those individual shots relative to each other shot.

You could think of precision as a scalar measurement representing overall group size. You can think of accuracy as a vector quantity representing the relation between the point of impact and point of aim.

To sum this up, in my opinion. Accuracy is the ability to put bullets where you want them to be. Precision is a measure of group size.
__________________
“We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.
– St. Augustine
kilotanker22 is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 05:34 PM   #29
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,737
What Best Defines Accuracy?

I always define accuracy the same way. Unbiased precision with precision defined as a high measure of repeatability. The simple cartoon version looks like this:


Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 05:35 PM   #30
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleA View Post
Bart B...just curious, is there an actual, technically correct answer to your original question?
Maybe, but it depends on ones objectives, conditions and standards.

Kilotanker22's is good. Reloadron has an interesting perspective.
Bart B. is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 06:58 PM   #31
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,737
Hey Bart, how goes it?
Quote:
Reloadron has an interesting perspective.
I guess my perspective is about my career which constantly crossed paths with Metrology (Measurement Technology) within the Navy Nuclear Propulsion Program.

Since the question of accuracy frequently comes up in my shooting forums I made the image I posted. During the last 20 years of my career my department head, a mechanical type, referred to my design schematics, me an electrical type, as my cartoons so it stuck as to my drawings.

While we can define accuracy in words I figure an image can sum it up to aid in getting our points across. Most definitions, not all, come close to my cartoon. I do not see it as much about groups of a number of rounds. If I have my point of aim at 6:00 O'Clock on the black and my shot or shot is in the 10X I have accuracy. Matters not if I shoot 10 rounds in 10 min or 10 rounds at one a day for 10 days. Just how I see it. My perspective.

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 07:14 PM   #32
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 10,006
Hmmm, then in theory accuracy could be completely divorced from the mechanics of the rifle itself?
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 08:07 PM   #33
robertsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 259
For importance, Precision > Accuracy

Precision is inherent in the gun.
Accuracy can be fixed. Adjust ye scope.
robertsig is online now  
Old April 11, 2022, 03:23 PM   #34
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,794
What Matters?

What matters to me. Practical accuracy.

I'm more a shotgunner tho I do enjoy range time with pistols and revolvers too.

My most accurate guns in general are those guns that fit me well. Those guns may well be capable of greater accuracy than I can deliver, what matters? What it does in my hands. My brother loves his lead sled, he would like to use it when he is shooting against me.

Fit is critical for shotguns, it matters for all guns.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old April 12, 2022, 07:15 AM   #35
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,415
Hitting what I aim at.
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old April 12, 2022, 10:09 AM   #36
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,207
For me it would be small many shot groups. In all competitions I compete in I need to put 20 or more shots as close to possible to my point of aim. I try to develop loads where I have around a .5 MOA 95% CEP for 20 or more rounds
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old April 28, 2022, 04:18 PM   #37
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,650
My .243 loads are not extensively tested, unlike other hunting loads. I just picked one out of the manual and it shot well enough for me. I never seriously hunted much with the .243, but loaded some ammo right out of the manual that were fine for the kids to hunt with and the rifle is light to carry down back. One day, on a whim, I had my grand-daughter shoot three shots at 150 yards at my deer gong heart, while standing/leaning off the back of the pickup cover, using a sandbag for a rest. They were inside of one inch! (Since she grew up out-of-state, I never had the chance to shoot with her much.) The very next day, she shot a nice 140 lb. doe with that rifle at 150 yards. She also just won an award in the Air Force for her rifle shooting. She's an MP, or whatever they call it in the AF.

(Her brother was an award-winning army sniper who won awards in the Army, but that has little bearing here.) When he was about 10, I taught him how to shoot rifles with my super-accurate 10-22.
Picher is offline  
Old April 28, 2022, 07:21 PM   #38
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,737
Quote:
She's an MP, or whatever they call it in the AF.
That would be an AP (Air Police).

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old April 29, 2022, 08:47 PM   #39
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,236
44 & Stag nailed it on the first 2 respoces . Nuff said !

Quote:
Bart B...just curious, is there an actual, technically correct answer to your original question?
Yes and he knows the answer . Over the years he has started asking questions he knows the answer to , then challenging the answers . He really helped me out in these forums ten years ago with good thoughtful answers but lately I feel he’s decided to carry Guffey’s torch in his absence lol
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; April 29, 2022 at 10:59 PM.
Metal god is offline  
Old April 30, 2022, 02:12 PM   #40
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,655
Accuracy is measured by my standing in the match results.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old April 30, 2022, 02:51 PM   #41
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,579
Quote:
This is the old question of precision vs accuracy. If your rifle shoots very small groups it is precise, but not necessarily accurate.
My OCD kicks in and my eye twitches (the left eye, actually) when somebody posts a beautifully tight group, 3" from the bullseye and proclaim a rifle/shooter/ammo to be "very accurate." I keep saying to myself, "...but you missed the bullseye."
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 12:57 AM   #42
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 10,006
Quote:
44 & Stag nailed it on the first 2 respoces . Nuff said !
I believe I was wrong, actually.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 03:31 AM   #43
AzShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Surprise, Az.
Posts: 744
For me, accuracy is a revolver that can shoot 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a bench. I can do it all day long with my automatic but there are very few rounds that can equal that in my revolvers.
In my .38 I found a great combination of 186 grain cast lead round nose ( special dye made for me ) with a load of Unique that would shoot 1 inch from a rest. Not many other loads would go sub 2 inches at the same distance.
AzShooter is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 01:23 PM   #44
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,236
Quote:
I believe I was wrong, actually.
No you were not and don't ever let them convince you other wise haha . It's all fake news
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 01:34 PM   #45
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,236
Quote:
A .5" group a foot away from the target is less accurate than a 5" group centered on the target.
That's not true even a little bit . During load development I'm often inches away from my POA and that has zero to do with the accuracy or the rounds . "I" determine the accuracy because only "I" know what I'm trying to accomplish .

FIRST 3 SHOTS FIRED FROM A NIB SAVAGE MODEL 10 after bore sighting . I guess that's not very accurate ?



SAME GUN ABOUT 1500rds later , there was an issue with the action and yet it still shot 2 separate 1/2 moa groups in the same 10 shot string .





There are caveats to everything and is why you the shooter get to say what is accurate and not the POI . It also points out how this is a troll question , it can be reasonably argued we are all correct depending on your perspective . The question was phrased in a way to never come to a conclusion so we all can go round and round about who is the smart one here .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; May 1, 2022 at 01:49 PM.
Metal god is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12639 seconds with 8 queries