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Old November 28, 2021, 02:22 PM   #1
Pahoo
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Full-metal jacket bullets; Kyle Rittenhouse

I followed the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, fairly consistent and could not believe some of the so-called evidence. One item that keeps coming back to me, is when the prosecution tried to deceive the jury by defining the properties of "full-Metal" jacket bullets. I have a fairly good idea on the type of bullets in question. The made it sound like one could bring down buildings. Also the term implied that their use was over-kill. ...

My measure is that they were the standard .223 copper alloy jackets that are readily available at any sporting goods store. Nothing special !! What say "you" ??

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Old November 28, 2021, 02:32 PM   #2
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Imagine the stink they would have made had he used hollow points.
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Old November 28, 2021, 02:44 PM   #3
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Not to be the snitch, but there’s a thread on this in the legal forum.
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Old November 28, 2021, 02:45 PM   #4
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Oops, my bad, it’s been closed.
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Old November 29, 2021, 09:18 AM   #5
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I’m pretty certain the bullet that took 90% of that guys arm was not an FMJ.
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Old November 29, 2021, 10:12 AM   #6
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My measure is that they were the standard .223 copper alloy jackets that are readily available at any sporting goods store. Nothing special !! What say "you" ??
A "nothing special" bullet or ammo still has attributes that can be played up or down by either side.

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I’m pretty certain the bullet that took 90% of that guys arm was not an FMJ.
You must be talking about some other shooting because Gaige Grosskruetz only lost part of his bicep when he was shot by Rittenhouse at 3 feet, not 90% of his arm.
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Old November 29, 2021, 08:18 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
A "nothing special" bullet or ammo still has attributes that can be played up or down by either side.



You must be talking about some other shooting because Gaige Grosskruetz only lost part of his bicep when he was shot by Rittenhouse at 3 feet, not 90% of his arm.
90% of his bicep i should have said. The pic of his arm wound didn’t look like what a typical FMJ would do, more like a ballistic tip.
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Old November 29, 2021, 08:22 PM   #8
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I'd guess the muzzle blast aided in the destruction of tissue in that case.
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Old November 29, 2021, 08:51 PM   #9
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90% of his bicep i should have said. The pic of his arm wound didn’t look like what a typical FMJ would do, more like a ballistic tip.
My Vietnam vet brother was a medic during the war. He told me that the worse rifle wound he ever saw was a close range (almost contact), from a FMJ 5.56 to a guys leg. One would assume FMJ's are less destructive than expanding bullets, but evidently distance from the muzzle is a factor.
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Old November 29, 2021, 09:12 PM   #10
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Don't take it personally. A good prosecutor is going to try to convince the jury the defendant is guilty. That is what he is paid to do. It wouldn't have mattered which bullet was used.

Since the military uses FMJ they played that card. If it had been a HP they would have tried to use the argument that HP is banned for military use because it is considered inhumane. A good defense lawyer will know how to counter either argument. Much like a chess game.

At the end of the day the prosecution is doing their job. Had the guy with the Glock shot and killed Rittenhouse they would have prosecuted him and used the same arguments depending on the type of ammo he used.

The testimony of the prosecution's main witness' were what led to the not guilty verdict.
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Old November 30, 2021, 01:43 AM   #11
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90% of his bicep i should have said. The pic of his arm wound didn’t look like what a typical FMJ would do, more like a ballistic tip.
Don't confuse ballistic damage with surgical damage. He lost so much because the surgeon removed a lot of damaged tissue.

As for what the wound looked like in the picture, I will compare what happens between shots on a small animal versus a large animal. When the shot enters at roughly 3000 fps, there is going to be a good amount of temporary wound channel expansion. A small animal often cannot contain that expansion and blows apart. Larger animals contain the same impact and don't blow apart. Grosskruetz's arm is like that of a small animal.

Additionally, it is likely that a 55 gr. bullet tumbled, which also would have cause a lot more damage - damage that would be fairly close to the surface of the skin as the bullet traveled upward through the upper arm.
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Old November 30, 2021, 06:18 AM   #12
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KE at muzzle.

end of discussion.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Don't confuse ballistic damage with surgical damage. He lost so much because the surgeon removed a lot of damaged tissue.

As for what the wound looked like in the picture, I will compare what happens between shots on a small animal versus a large animal. When the shot enters at roughly 3000 fps, there is going to be a good amount of temporary wound channel expansion. A small animal often cannot contain that expansion and blows apart. Larger animals contain the same impact and don't blow apart. Grosskruetz's arm is like that of a small animal.

Additionally, it is likely that a 55 gr. bullet tumbled, which also would have cause a lot more damage - damage that would be fairly close to the surface of the skin as the bullet traveled upward through the upper arm.
That makes sense.

Can the bullet tumble that soon though?
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:48 AM   #14
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Tumbling is kind of a misnomer.
From what I have read, at close range the FMJ will break in half at the cannelure, producing two irregularly shaped projectiles that do more damage.
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Old November 30, 2021, 10:40 AM   #15
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If the muzzle was touching his arm the gasses following the projectile may have been to blame too. When doing retention drills where the muzzle is touching the target, the target typically ends up in shreds.
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Old November 30, 2021, 10:52 AM   #16
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Seen the breaking at the cannelure when testing a newspaper-filled cardboard box as a bullet backstop.

It was around 1994, and I was too ignorant/stupid to build a dirt impact berm. Filled a large cardboard box with stacked newspapers and, while none of the bullets penetrated through the box, when I took it apart I found that many (most?) had broken into two pieces at the cannelure and shredded the newspaper pretty well.

At that time "everybody knew" that the bullets were designed to do that, to maximize tissue damage despite the Hague Convention about sot-point bullets. Probably total nonsense like a lot of things that "everybody knows" but it stuck in my mind.

Easy to test and see for yourself, anyway. Although maybe not, these days most people get their news online and don't have stacks of yesterday's newspapers sitting waiting to get recycled.

A stack of unwanted catalogs would probably work as well as newspapers.
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Old November 30, 2021, 12:15 PM   #17
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Assuming a 1 in 7 twist and 3000 fs, the bullet is spinning 308,571 rpm at impact.
Its normal for a bullet to leave the muzzle with considerable yaw. Given some time,they settle down.

At very close range, they strike with the point off axis. That will try to bend the bullet,and it will set up the tumble.

While I have become far more selective about my choice of live targets, in the 70's jackrabbits were plentiful around here,as were prairie dogs.

Those who think Gaiges bicep is unbelievable with ball ammo simply lack real world experience.

Sometimes the wound would look like a drilled hole,and sometimes tatters of unglued flesh would be hung from the sagebrush.

Its not particularly predictable.

If the bullet hit the humerus, a 360 degree shock wave of "temporary cavitation" certainly could have scattered Gaiges bicep to the breeze.

More important,in the pic I saw, Gaige was still holding the Glock he pointed at KR in his hand,irrefutable evidence that KR was justified to be in mortal fear for his life.

KR did not take careful aim at the bicep. It was a quick "point and shoot".

I cannot speak from experience, but I have read that often the focal point of attention during an SD shoot is the weapon.

Its not odd that a quick instinct shot would pass just over the Glock and hit the bicep.

And now,folks ,the critical point. I just does not flipping matter.

Gaige pointed a Glock at KR. It does not matter if KR shot him just under the nose,or in the heart,or with a 12 gauge,or a 338 Lapua loaded with a frangible round,or (gasp) a Lee Jurras 125 gr 357 mag swaged half jacket Super Vel.
Over kill? What a stupid concept. If KR was carrying the M-1 Garand his Grandpa passed on to him,and if ir was KR's one and only firearm,no matter what left over ammo his Grandpa left him, KR would be justified to hammer anyone pointing a Glock at him with a 30-06, be it loaded with Ball,or 150 gr CoreLoct . The lesson,keep the Glock holstered.
KR fired to save his own life. That condition met,there is NO REQUIREMENT the projectile or cartridge meet the prosecutors arbitrary approval. A 55 gr military ball,or close,is a totally generic,common,non remarkable round. There is nothing sinister about it.

Had it fully amputated Gaiges arm,leaving him to bleed out dead where he laid, KR was OK to protect his own life.

Hopefully Gaige's arm would still be holding the Glock. Good piece of evidence.

Last edited by HiBC; November 30, 2021 at 12:25 PM.
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Old November 30, 2021, 02:19 PM   #18
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The lesson,keep the Glock holstered.
OR--be sure you shoot first if you do unholster it.
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Old November 30, 2021, 04:55 PM   #19
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Stagpanther,sounds to me like you are advocating murder.

KR was trying to leave the whole time. Gaige was attacking. BIG difference.Attackers don't get to claim SD. Gaige made it through the cracks,but he met the qualifications for a prohibited person.

The verdict was NOT GUILTY on all charges.

You have remained stuck on wrong through the whole deal.

Get over your ego. Your credibility has fallen through the basement floor.

All of these guys showed a history of violent criminal behavior.

I'm not going to look it up.its not worth my time,but Gaige was a member of some violent anarchist group.

IMO, KR deserves a Public Service Award
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Old November 30, 2021, 07:46 PM   #20
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Stagpanther,sounds to me like you are advocating murder.

KR was trying to leave the whole time. Gaige was attacking. BIG difference.Attackers don't get to claim SD. Gaige made it through the cracks,but he met the qualifications for a prohibited person.

The verdict was NOT GUILTY on all charges.

You have remained stuck on wrong through the whole deal.

Get over your ego. Your credibility has fallen through the basement floor.

All of these guys showed a history of violent criminal behavior.

I'm not going to look it up.its not worth my time,but Gaige was a member of some violent anarchist group.

IMO, KR deserves a Public Service Award
Not worth my time to respond
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Old November 30, 2021, 10:05 PM   #21
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Tumbling is kind of a misnomer.
From what I have read, at close range the FMJ will break in half at the cannelure, producing two irregularly shaped projectiles that do more damage.
Tumbling is not a misnomer. The reason why the bullets break apart at the cannelure (assuming the particular bullet had one) is due to lateral stresses acting on the bullet due to tumble. Bullets do not always break apart, however. Also, the bullet doesn't simply break into two pieces because it hit something. In fact, it may pencil right through if is stable in flight at impact and the impact doesn't destabilize it.

So, the bullet, being heavier at the base, will tend to tumble if destabilized when hitting another medium such as body tissue. If it doesn't break apart, the bullet often will end up with the point oriented toward the entry wound. A tumbling bullet will do more damage than a penciling bullet. If the bullet breaks apart (which they are not actually designed to do, but just happen to do), the process is uncontrolled. The bullet may break into a few pieces or break into dozens of pieces, depending upon several variables.

Here is a video where the XM193 bullet shot into gel did not break apart. Lead apparently was squeezed out the base due to the lateral forces during tumble resulting in a lateral flattening of the bullet, but not breaking apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k

Quote:
Can the bullet tumble that soon though?
Again, multiple factors involved. As HiBC indicated, the bullet may not even be fully stabilized at short range, yawing in flight. If yawed at impact, the tumble can essentially be already started. Even if a perpendicular strike, depending on factors, the bullet may start to tumble very quickly, within ~2-4".
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Old December 1, 2021, 03:00 AM   #22
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Sometimes the wound would look like a drilled hole,and sometimes tatters of unglued flesh would be hung from the sagebrush.

Its not particularly predictable.
I would agree with this, based on my experience.

Sometimes, especially at close range the FMJ will just drill straight through, unless it hits a bone.

Every bullet that is longer than it is wide will "tumble" when passing through the resistance of a body. But there are a HUGE host of additional factors involved in whether or not we "see" the effect.

There are many, many cases where the bullet starts to tip off axis but doesn't reach anything that could be considered a "tumble" until after it has exited the body.

I've heard numerous first hand accounts of how the "lethal tumble" of the 5.56mm bullet was curiously absent or inconsistant at 25m and under in Viet Nam. That would be the M193 55gr FMJ load.

I've heard that the M855 62gr bullet is designed to break apart at the cannelure, to increase its effect, and I've also heard from "sandbox" veterans that fired from the short barrel carbines, this effect becomes erratic at ranges of 250m + due to the loss of bullet velocity.

And, if the weapon is fired in contact or close enough that the muzzle blast enters the body, that alone will produce a wound way out of proportion to what the bullet alone does.

Bringing up the type of ammunition used was the prosecutor's attempt to cast doubt on Rittenhouse's judgment in choice of ammunition, and thereby cast doubt on all his other decisions as well.

it didn't work.
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Old December 1, 2021, 10:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by stagpanther
Not worth my time to respond
I'll respond:

You're missing the entire context of HiBC's statement. This isn't about a general, "what does someone do" issue. This is about an attacker performing a criminal act. If the attacker would have kept his Glock holstered, KR probably wouldn't have shot him to begin with.


Now, back to talking about the "scary" murder/death/kill FMJ bullets...
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Old December 1, 2021, 03:20 PM   #24
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Can't forensic science determine whether Kyle Rittenhouse used fmj's on his victims, or not?
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Old December 1, 2021, 04:13 PM   #25
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What victims? They were attackers. The Judge was correct to not allow them to be called victims.

As far as I know,the remaining ammo in the magazine was ball, FMJ.

I'm sure if the Prosecutor had ANYTHING more to exploit ,we would have heard about it.

I'm curious, what point would it make either way?
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