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Old September 14, 2017, 07:59 PM   #26
CDR_Glock
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Ruger 454 Casull 5 inch vs Smith & Wesson 460 5 inch

My gateway to the large calibers was the 44 Magnum. Yes, there are bear defense loads for it. 300+ grain 44 Magnum +P. Even a 45 Colt has a bear defense Load, 45+P 300+ grains. 357 Magnum has a 180 gr load. Obviously the 454 and 500 also have bear defense ammo.

The 454 Casull 5" Toklat has the best blend of what I have for power, balance, accuracy, ballistics. It tames the mighty 454 and is easier to carry.

The 500 depending upon grain and Load has more power. The 460 has the greatest velocity of all of these.

I have a Universal chest carry rig, Grovtec Carry Holster. I got it for the Toklat and for the Alaskan (not simultaneously). I checked today, and it acommodates for all except my S&W 460 XVR 460, since I have an Ultradot Matchdot which does not clear the safety strap. It's an adjustable nylon holster with a mesh back. More comfortable than a leather holster.




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Old September 14, 2017, 10:15 PM   #27
44 AMP
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300+ grain 44 Magnum +P. Even a 45 Colt has a bear defense Load, 45+P 300+ grains.
To be precise, there is no such thing as a .44Mag +p or .45 Colt +p.

"+p" is a SAAMI spec, and is currently only applied to 9mm, .38 SPL, .38 Super, and .45ACP.

Heavier then standard pressure loads are "+p" in fact, but you cannot call them +p unless SAAMI give their approval. One ammo maker briefly made .45 Colt +p ammo, until SAAMI stepped in, and said they could not use that marking, because there was no SAAMI .45Colt +p rating. (potential lawsuit)

After that the maker marked its heavy load "for use in modern firearms only"

Black bear are not armor plated fire breathing demons from hell, in most places, a 300lb black bear is a BIG bear. They are not particularly difficult to kill, and anything from a .38 special on up will do it.

What they are, is difficult to HIT in a vital spot when moving. A bear that is actually attacking moves pretty quick, and choosing one of the hand cannons (.454/.460 etc.) effectively means you are most likely to only get ONE SHOT, because of the recoil and the time involved. Me, I prefer something a bit less recoil, allowing me the (remote) possibility of more than one shot, and the ability to hang on to the handgun FOR that shot.
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Old September 14, 2017, 10:25 PM   #28
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I've actually fired examples of those two revolvers! The Casull was nearly 20 years ago, so my recollections might be a bit 'varnished,' and the 460 was about three months ago. However, I felt the 460 was less abusive in its recoil than the .454 Casull. If I had to choose between the two right now to defend myself against a bear tomorrow, I'd pick the 460, just because I'm pretty sure I can shoot it faster.

Other considerations aside, both of these guns are literally hand cannons; they are both pretty heavy. And at least for both hunting and defense as it concerns black bears, I doubt seriously you'd need more than your typical .44 magnum 6-8 inch barreled version.

But if you have the dough and all, then either will get the job done; just pick the one you like.
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Old September 15, 2017, 03:17 AM   #29
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Talking to people that either horse pack, or backpack in the Washington Cascades. Opinion seems to be for a semi auto in .45, or a revolver in .357. Black bears and cougar are not difficult to kill, having a gun you can shoot fast and accurate is important. IMO the worse threat in the great outdoors is people rather than critter.
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Old September 15, 2017, 03:24 AM   #30
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Nuts, I misspoke; I meant a 4- or 6-inch .357 magnum, not a .44 mag. Though if one can shoot a .44 mag accurately and quickly, it'd serve as well.
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Old September 16, 2017, 09:41 PM   #31
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... I felt the 460 was less abusive in its recoil than the .454 Casull. If I had to choose between the two right now to defend myself against a bear tomorrow, I'd pick the 460, just because I'm pretty sure I can shoot it faster.
It can come as a surprise that .460 is both more powerful and more comfortable to shoot than .454 but I think there are two reasons for it. First, the XVR is heavy, nicely compensated, and comes with about the most comfortable grips you can get for a revolver. (Those grips also fit the L-frame. Try them out on a 686 sometime for some very comfortable .357 magnum shooting.) The second is something another poster mentioned. I think there is a difference in how or how quickly the recoil is distributed with .454. I suspect this is the same issue that makes .40 S&W "snappy". The .460 sends out a shockwave that you can feel with your arm hair (or in your teeth if you happen to have your mouth open) but something about it still feels gentler than .454.
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Old September 16, 2017, 09:47 PM   #32
CDR_Glock
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Ruger 454 Casull 5 inch vs Smith & Wesson 460 5 inch

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
To be precise, there is no such thing as a .44Mag +p or .45 Colt +p.



"+p" is a SAAMI spec, and is currently only applied to 9mm, .38 SPL, .38 Super, and .45ACP.



Heavier then standard pressure loads are "+p" in fact, but you cannot call them +p unless SAAMI give their approval. One ammo maker briefly made .45 Colt +p ammo, until SAAMI stepped in, and said they could not use that marking, because there was no SAAMI .45Colt +p rating. (potential lawsuit)



After that the maker marked its heavy load "for use in modern firearms only"



Black bear are not armor plated fire breathing demons from hell, in most places, a 300lb black bear is a BIG bear. They are not particularly difficult to kill, and anything from a .38 special on up will do it.



What they are, is difficult to HIT in a vital spot when moving. A bear that is actually attacking moves pretty quick, and choosing one of the hand cannons (.454/.460 etc.) effectively means you are most likely to only get ONE SHOT, because of the recoil and the time involved. Me, I prefer something a bit less recoil, allowing me the (remote) possibility of more than one shot, and the ability to hang on to the handgun FOR that shot.

I saw these loads in a store. May not be official but it's what I saw.


I have and can rapid fire a 44 Magnum and a 5" Toklat 454.

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Last edited by CDR_Glock; September 17, 2017 at 11:38 AM.
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Old September 17, 2017, 01:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
To be precise, there is no such thing as a .44Mag +p or .45 Colt +p.
There is no SAAMI standard for those designations but there are loads in those chamberings that exceed SAAMI pressure standards and that is the reason they are marked as such. I'm all for whatever markings are necessary to keep those loads out of the wrong guns.
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Old September 17, 2017, 01:51 PM   #34
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I've seen a fair sampling of southeast black bears. I believe that the .44 magnum, the gun that has killed plenty of grizzly bears and even Alaskan browns before the casull was widely distributed is very capable of killing a brown bear from the southeast.

My opinion is that unless you just want the brutal power of the larger rounds, buy the cheaper, smaller, lighter, easier to handle .44. Practice on the far cheaper .44 rounds.
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Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM   #35
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Still here! Shot a friend of a friends Ruger Alaskan who came to town and was waiting to try it! It definitely shootable. I personally wouldn't go over the 5/6 inch barrel mark (so it could still stay in the defense category and not be so long).

That being said - I will need to practice a lot to get decent quick draw double action shots. A heavy double action pull sure feels heavier when you are anticipating a round like that! I see how 6 rounds can help over 5. The slow push of a 460 recoil I can't speak to but it sounds interesting (I do favor 45 over 9 for this regard). I think I'll move toward the 454 Toklat and fire heavy grain hard cast rounds - giving that more hefty push recoil over a hard snap.

I do want to shoot the 460 but the guns are so few and far between. Does anybody have experience and can speak to the recoil impulse on both 5 inch barrel versions? The XVR would be too long in my case. I really appreciate all of this advice.

Last edited by cjsoccer3; Yesterday at 09:23 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 09:23 PM   #36
CDR_Glock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsoccer3 View Post
Still here! Shot a friend of a friends Ruger Alaskan who came to town and was waiting to try it! It definitely shootable. I personally wouldn't go over the 5/6 inch barrel mark (so it could still stay in the defense category and not be so long).



That being said - I will need to practice a lot to get decent quick draw double action shots. A heavy double action pull sure feels heavier when you are anticipating a round like that! I see how 6 rounds can help over 5. The slow push of a 460 recoil I can't speak to but it sounds interesting (I do favor 45 over 9 for this regard). I think I'll move toward the 454 Toklat and fire heavy grain hard cast rounds - giving that more hefty push recoil over a hard snap.



I do want to shoot the 460 but the guns are so few and far between.


The Toklat is a great one. It is a perfect balance amongst the other two.

I just outfitted this 44 SRH with a red dot, but it's a bit long.


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Old Yesterday, 09:24 PM   #37
CDR_Glock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmoser65 View Post
There is no SAAMI standard for those designations but there are loads in those chamberings that exceed SAAMI pressure standards and that is the reason they are marked as such. I'm all for whatever markings are necessary to keep those loads out of the wrong guns.


They specifically outline which guns it's designed for.


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