CCW list used improperly

mnhntr · December 22, 2009, 10:17 PM

Mods feel free to move as I did not know where this was appropriate to post.

Ramsey County, MN sheriff used the CCW list in his county to solicite fundraising money. Offering card holders to shoot at indoor county LEO range asking them to donate 150 bucks for charities. I believe this is a wrongful use of his position and the list of CCW holders.

LukeA · December 22, 2009, 10:49 PM

Yup. That sounds like grounds for a lawsuit to me.

mica · December 22, 2009, 11:04 PM

I'd look into any privacy laws regarding CC permits in MN.

Sounds like a pretty good deal though.

laytonj1 · December 23, 2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Offering card holders to shoot at indoor county LEO range asking them to donate 150 bucks for charities

What is the going rate for a membership at other ranges? May not be such a bad deal.

Jim

mnhntr · December 23, 2009, 12:10 AM

it was for a one time shoot

fastforty · December 23, 2009, 12:11 AM

Public record here, anyone can use it for anything they want to.

Elvishead · December 23, 2009, 04:21 AM

Quote:

asking them to donate 150 bucks for charities.

There just asking, they are not telling. After all, it's all for charity.

Getting together and talking with other CCWs sounds like a good time if I wasn't so cheap. They probably have door prize's and food.

blume357 · December 23, 2009, 07:12 AM

and go shoot... I know some will see if different but heck you are making the sheriff happy and helping out a good cause.

Ozzieman · December 24, 2009, 10:18 PM

That’s not as bad as what a paper here in Indiana did.
They were known as an anti gun promoter and they put all the Concealed carry permits names and addresses in the paper for the county.
I was VERY glad I did not live in that county.
If you want to read the story, write to the editor telling him of your anger or contacting advertisers to the paper you can find all that information in the story at the address listed below.
I wrote to the editor and got a very “You are just a gun nut” response.
Indiana: The Herald-Times Online Thinks Gun Owners are Stupid, Paranoid, and Easily Manipulated!
http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/t...=10931&posts=1

SoupieXX75 · December 24, 2009, 11:17 PM

HOLY CRAP!

Ozzieman... I think I just blew a gasket! That is BULL!! What is wrong with these jerks?? I don't even know where to begin with that. I'm PO'd and I don't even live in Indiana!

Geez... Public record or not, I think having a concealed weapons permit should allow us to keep it CONCEALED! If we wanted to advertise... We'd OPEN CARRY!

Sorry, OP. Didn't mean to hijack... I do feel a small twinge seeing that the SO used the list improperly, but I do want to help others when I can. And who wouldn't enjoy shooting on a range your tax $$ paid for?

Uncle Buck · December 25, 2009, 11:48 AM

Maybe they could do a comparison study, or a survey of burglars caught, and see if having a gun in the home, or a CCW deterred any crime.

Of course they would never publish the results of the survey, unless they could find a way to turn the data in their favor.

I understand this is a public record, but does it have to be published? I think the records should be sealed just like they do when a Juvenile is arrested. (I know it is two different things, but...)

Geez, just thinking about this, a juvenile has more privacy if he commits a crime than a law abiding citizen...

Ifishsum · December 26, 2009, 02:00 AM

The kind of shenanigans that Ozzieman speaks of are indeed happening - here in Oregon most of our sheriff's have moved to keep CCL holder information private but are being challenged in court to release the information as public record. Started with a newspaper filing an FOI request for a list of CCLs issued (and being refused).

MADISON · December 26, 2009, 09:22 AM

Virginia CCW list:
A couple of years ago our locak newspaper dowloaded the entire CCW member list and put it on the web for everybody to download and/or view.
That year our legislature made it a crime to make the list public or use the list.
If someone in in virginia were to use the list to solicite money they would quicklu end up in jail/prison.

Double Naught Spy · December 26, 2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Ramsey County, MN sheriff used the CCW list in his county to solicite fundraising money. Offering card holders to shoot at indoor county LEO range asking them to donate 150 bucks for charities. I believe this is a wrongful use of his position and the list of CCW holders.

According to MN DPS, the information is NOT public record and so it would appear to be an inappropriate use of the information unless somehow the event was sponsored by the state or the granting agency or is allowable by law.

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/...tml#publiclist

Quote:

Yup. That sounds like grounds for a lawsuit to me.

Somebody was somehow damaged by the solicitation? Just because somebody does something wrong does not always mean that there needs to be a lawsuit or that a lawsuit is even valid.

Sefner · December 26, 2009, 01:33 PM

Even if it's not a misuse of public information etc etc isn't that a violation of McCain-Feingold or other campaign finance laws? I know here in Michigan (can't remember if it's a federal or state law that prevents this) a Sheriff was put into hot water for posing for a picture that went into campaign literate that had him wearing a radio that was bought for the department with federal funds. Even if you're in the SO you can't use your title when running for office (ie: you can't say "Elect Lieutenant Smith for XXXX" because it's a misuse of taxpayer dollars (your salary). This may or may not apply here but it's another avenue to look into if you're that mad about it. Personally I might take the offer

Conn. Trooper · December 26, 2009, 04:18 PM

Maybe I am confused. The sheriff sent notices to the permit holders and offered a day at the range if they made a donation to charity?

If that's true then the only release of information was to the permit holders themselves. The information wasn't sold to someone or published, they used the list to offer the day at the range to people that have permits to carry. So, they sent you a letter telling you that you have a permit to carry? So what? The permit holders already know, I hope.

And asking to donate to charity doesn't violate campaign laws, that I am aware of.

Jim March · December 26, 2009, 05:39 PM

Yeah, I would say this is "wrong" but not "horrorshow wrong". Y'know?

sharpshot71 · December 26, 2009, 11:00 PM

The problem is that the sheriff used information which is not public, for something which is not included in his job description. He only has access to that information because he is the sheriff, but the use of the information had nothing to do with his duties as sheriff.

The point is that he used the information in a way he wasn't supposed to, he is well known as not being friendly to permit holders and he was not trying to do permit holders a favor. How else is he using this information in a way he wasn't supposed to?

Sefner · December 26, 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conn. Trooper

And asking to donate to charity doesn't violate campaign laws, that I am aware of.

Not necessarily the finance portion but rather the misuse of information or things procured as a result of an official position. Like the example in my post, you can't use certain things/say certain things in campaigns because of laws like that. I was merely suggesting that if the OP is really outraged about it that one possible avenue is laws such as these (for instance, maybe when they go to the range the candidate is there and starts asking for donations, endorsements etc).

And again, I think the gesture is actually quite nice (depending on certain things). I would probably go. The story about the list being printed in the papers infuriates me to no end, though.

glocktoys · December 27, 2009, 12:29 AM

i am in Indiana and know of the listing on the papers web site listing people who have a ccw on any street in that town (they decided to block out name and address but still list by street). they wanted to post mane and address but got so much bad feedback they changed it. what a crock. the sherriff calling and asking for donations to use the leo range is not bad if he was calling everyone, but if he singled out ccw holders then he was not including people who lve in his jurisdiction and don't have a ccw.may upset some people but depends on the state and county or local laws on the ccw apps. this my be handled at a county board meeting but not sure if any other recourse would work if info is public.

stickhauler · December 27, 2009, 03:05 AM

How could it be a violation of McCain-Feingold? The contribution, if the CCW holder opted to give, was not for a political campaign, it was for charity.

I don't know that state's law on CCW, but many states issue through the sheriff in your county, so they know who has a carry license or permit. The list wasn't shared with people who had no reason to know who had a CCW, and the CCW holder wasn't required to contribute if they didn't want to.

Given the liberties taken nationwide by anti-gunner newspapers and other media groups with CCW information, this pales in comparison.

December 22, 2009, 10:17 PM	#1
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	CCW list used improperly Mods feel free to move as I did not know where this was appropriate to post. Ramsey County, MN sheriff used the CCW list in his county to solicite fundraising money. Offering card holders to shoot at indoor county LEO range asking them to donate 150 bucks for charities. I believe this is a wrongful use of his position and the list of CCW holders.

December 23, 2009, 12:11 AM	#6
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	Public record here, anyone can use it for anything they want to. __________________ When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.

December 23, 2009, 07:12 AM	#8
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	Technically, maybe it was wrong.... but I think I'd give 'em the $150 and go shoot... I know some will see if different but heck you are making the sheriff happy and helping out a good cause.

December 25, 2009, 11:48 AM	#11
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Maybe they could do a comparison study, or a survey of burglars caught, and see if having a gun in the home, or a CCW deterred any crime. Of course they would never publish the results of the survey, unless they could find a way to turn the data in their favor. I understand this is a public record, but does it have to be published? I think the records should be sealed just like they do when a Juvenile is arrested. (I know it is two different things, but...) Geez, just thinking about this, a juvenile has more privacy if he commits a crime than a law abiding citizen... __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

December 26, 2009, 09:22 AM	#13
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	CCW list used improperly Virginia CCW list: A couple of years ago our locak newspaper dowloaded the entire CCW member list and put it on the web for everybody to download and/or view. That year our legislature made it a crime to make the list public or use the list. If someone in in virginia were to use the list to solicite money they would quicklu end up in jail/prison.

December 22, 2009, 10:49 PM	#2
LukeA Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 542	Yup. That sounds like grounds for a lawsuit to me.

December 22, 2009, 11:04 PM	#3
mica Member Join Date: March 15, 2006 Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA Posts: 89	I'd look into any privacy laws regarding CC permits in MN. Sounds like a pretty good deal though.

December 23, 2009, 12:10 AM	#5
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	it was for a one time shoot

December 24, 2009, 10:18 PM	#9
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	That’s not as bad as what a paper here in Indiana did. They were known as an anti gun promoter and they put all the Concealed carry permits names and addresses in the paper for the county. I was VERY glad I did not live in that county. If you want to read the story, write to the editor telling him of your anger or contacting advertisers to the paper you can find all that information in the story at the address listed below. I wrote to the editor and got a very “You are just a gun nut” response. Indiana: The Herald-Times Online Thinks Gun Owners are Stupid, Paranoid, and Easily Manipulated! http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/t...=10931&posts=1

December 24, 2009, 11:17 PM	#10
SoupieXX75 Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 67	HOLY CRAP! Ozzieman... I think I just blew a gasket! That is BULL!! What is wrong with these jerks?? I don't even know where to begin with that. I'm PO'd and I don't even live in Indiana! Geez... Public record or not, I think having a concealed weapons permit should allow us to keep it CONCEALED! If we wanted to advertise... We'd OPEN CARRY! Sorry, OP. Didn't mean to hijack... I do feel a small twinge seeing that the SO used the list improperly, but I do want to help others when I can. And who wouldn't enjoy shooting on a range your tax $$ paid for?

December 26, 2009, 02:00 AM	#12
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	The kind of shenanigans that Ozzieman speaks of are indeed happening - here in Oregon most of our sheriff's have moved to keep CCL holder information private but are being challenged in court to release the information as public record. Started with a newspaper filing an FOI request for a list of CCLs issued (and being refused).

December 26, 2009, 01:33 PM	#15
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Even if it's not a misuse of public information etc etc isn't that a violation of McCain-Feingold or other campaign finance laws? I know here in Michigan (can't remember if it's a federal or state law that prevents this) a Sheriff was put into hot water for posing for a picture that went into campaign literate that had him wearing a radio that was bought for the department with federal funds. Even if you're in the SO you can't use your title when running for office (ie: you can't say "Elect Lieutenant Smith for XXXX" because it's a misuse of taxpayer dollars (your salary). This may or may not apply here but it's another avenue to look into if you're that mad about it. Personally I might take the offer

December 26, 2009, 04:18 PM	#16
Conn. Trooper Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 530	Maybe I am confused. The sheriff sent notices to the permit holders and offered a day at the range if they made a donation to charity? If that's true then the only release of information was to the permit holders themselves. The information wasn't sold to someone or published, they used the list to offer the day at the range to people that have permits to carry. So, they sent you a letter telling you that you have a permit to carry? So what? The permit holders already know, I hope. And asking to donate to charity doesn't violate campaign laws, that I am aware of.

December 26, 2009, 05:39 PM	#17
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Yeah, I would say this is "wrong" but not "horrorshow wrong". Y'know? __________________ Jim March

December 26, 2009, 11:00 PM	#18
sharpshot71 Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Posts: 27	The problem is that the sheriff used information which is not public, for something which is not included in his job description. He only has access to that information because he is the sheriff, but the use of the information had nothing to do with his duties as sheriff. The point is that he used the information in a way he wasn't supposed to, he is well known as not being friendly to permit holders and he was not trying to do permit holders a favor. How else is he using this information in a way he wasn't supposed to?

December 27, 2009, 12:29 AM	#20
glocktoys Member Join Date: April 29, 2006 Posts: 47	i am in Indiana and know of the listing on the papers web site listing people who have a ccw on any street in that town (they decided to block out name and address but still list by street). they wanted to post mane and address but got so much bad feedback they changed it. what a crock. the sherriff calling and asking for donations to use the leo range is not bad if he was calling everyone, but if he singled out ccw holders then he was not including people who lve in his jurisdiction and don't have a ccw.may upset some people but depends on the state and county or local laws on the ccw apps. this my be handled at a county board meeting but not sure if any other recourse would work if info is public.

December 27, 2009, 03:05 AM	#21
stickhauler Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Posts: 244	How could it be a violation of McCain-Feingold? The contribution, if the CCW holder opted to give, was not for a political campaign, it was for charity. I don't know that state's law on CCW, but many states issue through the sheriff in your county, so they know who has a carry license or permit. The list wasn't shared with people who had no reason to know who had a CCW, and the CCW holder wasn't required to contribute if they didn't want to. Given the liberties taken nationwide by anti-gunner newspapers and other media groups with CCW information, this pales in comparison.

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