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Old August 10, 2018, 08:07 AM   #26
zincwarrior
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Originally Posted by adamBomb View Post
IDK when they morphed but this spokeswoman sounds absolutely insane...especially when they need democrats as we are seeing in NY right now:

When addressing the NY Times - NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch says “We’ve had it with your narratives, your propaganda, your fake news. We’ve had it with your constant protection of your Democrat overlords, your refusal to acknowledge any truth that upsets the fragile construct that you believe is real life. And we’ve had it with your tone-deaf assertion that you are in any way truth or fact-based journalism,” Loesch says. “Consider this the shot across your proverbial bow. … In short? We’re coming for you.”
Having advocates for issues unrelated to firearms in no way benefits gun owners. Oliver North is another example. Can he even legally own firearms?
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Old August 10, 2018, 08:09 AM   #27
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It didn’t happen BECAUSE of the NRA
It didn't happen because of congress. Whether or not the NRA actually influenced one of those congressmen is anyone's guess. I mean they probably did but to claim its because of the NRA is misleading.
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:11 AM   #28
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I still feel that the NRA Has become the voice of the weapons mfg. They told us that when Obama was Potus, he'd take away our rights to carry weapons. It never happened!!!!! Gun purchases went through the roof & the was our trusted IRA He absplutely didn't This was one big fat lie. Then, why did gun sales drop when Trump came into being ??
When, based on past experience, you say you expect something to happen, and it doesn't, I don't think its fair to call it a lie.

People in the Obama administration DID push for more gun control. Some of it was stopped by Congress, most of it was stopped by other people in the administration telling those pushing for gun control to shut up about it, for now...they didn't want gun control pushed, at the time, because they feared the backlash against it would hamper getting Obama's other agenda's passed into law. (and, they were right_)

They didn't give up, they just put gun control on the back burner in favor of other social issues, which was something the NRA, and the rest of us didn't expect them to do.

And, yes, the panic buying surge did drop when Trump was elected. The reason is simple, and the same as the panic surge of buying before and during the Obama years. We expect Trump not to push gun control. He might, but its not what we expect. We expected Obama to push gun control, but despite what many of his people wanted, he didn't.

The fact that we were surprised about that didn't make our expectations a lie, it just made them incorrect. LIES are intentional, errors are not.

As to the NRA being the "voice of gunmakers", the only people I ever hear saying that are those seeking to show the NRA as something it is not.

Never heard the NRA say "buy this gun" or even "buy any gun", only "you have a right to a gun, if you choose". Likewise, I've heard people say the NRA condones, even promotes murder, which, to me is an obvious lie, but they still say it, and worse, some people seem to believe it.

Is the PGA the voice of golf club makers?? Is NASCAR the voice of the auto makers? Are any of the dozens (or more) organizations that promote a particular sport called the voice of the makers of the equipment used in that sport?? Not that I hear, only the NRA is so demonized.

Is there a connection, a link, a relationship of some kind between the NRA and gun makers? Sure. But its NOT the one the anti gun shills claim it is. The NRA does not, and never did exist for the purpose of selling more guns to the public so that gun makers can profit.
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:33 AM   #29
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by adamBomb
Whether or not the NRA actually influenced one of those congressmen is anyone's guess. I mean they probably did but to claim its because of the NRA is misleading.
In what way is it misleading to state something that is repeated by every single gun control group, media foreign and domestic, and the NRA, without contradiction - except apparently by you?

You correctly inferred my meaning. You agree the NRA probably did influence Congress to block gun control in 2013. Is there some particular reason an extra dose of pedantry was required that I’m not seeing?
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:45 AM   #30
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The NRA is what it is because of the battle they are fighting on our behalf. The anti-gun crowd may tell you they want "common sense" gun control, but rest assured they have a very different interpretation of that than you or I might. I remember listening to an interview of a leader of the Brady Campaign on NPR. He stated quite clearly that their goal was no civilian ownership of firearms. He said this will not happen overnight, but through incremental changes over the next few decades. Yes, maybe the NRA morphed, but for very good reason.
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Old August 10, 2018, 11:12 AM   #31
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Here is a history of the NRA:

https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra/

Quote:
Dismayed by the lack of marksmanship shown by their troops, Union veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate formed the National Rifle Association in 1871. The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis," according to a magazine editorial written by Church.
Quote:
The NRA's interest in promoting the shooting sports among America's youth began in 1903 when NRA Secretary Albert S. Jones urged the establishment of rifle clubs at all major colleges, universities and military academies. By 1906, NRA's youth program was in full swing with more than 200 boys competing in matches at Sea Girt that summer. Today, youth programs are still a cornerstone of the NRA, with more than one million youth participating in NRA shooting sports events and affiliated programs with groups such as 4-H, the Boy Scouts of America, the American Legion, Royal Rangers, National High School Rodeo Association and others.
Quote:
the NRA's call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain's defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun-control laws enacted between World War I and World War II).
Quote:
Law enforcement training was next on the priority list for program development. Although a special police school had been reinstated at Camp Perry in 1956, NRA became the only national trainer of law enforcement officers with the introduction of its NRA Police Firearms Instructor certification program in 1960. Today, there are more than 13,000 NRA-certified police and security firearms instructors. Additionally, top law enforcement shooters compete each year in eight different pistol and shotgun matches at the National Police Shooting Championships held in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Quote:
In civilian training, the NRA continues to be the leader in firearms education. Over 125,000 certified instructors now train about 1,000,000 gun owners a year.
Quote:
While widely recognized today as a major political force and as America's foremost defender of Second Amendment rights, the NRA has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world.
They never lost sight of the mission. I am a proud life time member.
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Old August 10, 2018, 11:16 AM   #32
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Most anti-gun voices have shed the common sense gun control dialogue and have gone toward more restrictive bans.
Some of the politicians that we here would consider radical are being rejected as not being radical enough.
We don’t have to worry any more that The Republic or The Democracy will take our rights; the Corporatocracy will do that.
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Old August 10, 2018, 08:19 PM   #33
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Doc Holliday 1950 I am okay with most of the responses from Forum members. However, the reality is the America has the most guns/population execpt maybe israel.
Which has nothing to do with anything.
In fact, Israel has some pretty restrictive laws on private possession and ownership of firearms.



Quote:
They have very strict gun laws & almost everyone gets Military teaching & weapon training via their mandate that almost all women&/or men are better ment serve in one of their trained than we are. they have a military reason for this.
And?
All the best training in the world means nothing when you are unarmed.


Quote:
I still feel that the NRA Has become the voice of the weapons mfg.
That's sad.



Quote:
They told us that when Obama was Potus, he'd take away our rights to carry weapons. It never happened!!!!!
And why do you think it didn't happen? A complete and near total inability by Congress to pass anti gun legislation. A Congress that learned during Obamas first midterm that its political suicide to cross the NRA.


Quote:
Gun purchases went through the roof & the was our trusted IRA He absplutely didn't This was one big fat lie. Then, why did gun sales drop when Trump came into being ??
Guns sales dropped because Trump allegedly supports the Second Amendment. In short, no need to panic buy and gun sales returned to the same sales levels as they were during the GWB administration.


Quote:
I will going to restate that about 99 % of us carry properly and not nor ever resonsible for the surge of mass shooters Most of the mass killings should have never happened that children can be brain washed into getting a gun for some of the worst reasons & using therm.
What?



Quote:
As to arming our teachers. They have a ton of reason not to have a un. These people are "TEACHERS" not lawmen nor educated enogh to carryinf in class a weapon
So.....a teachers Second Amendment rights end at the schoolhouse door?

Do you really think that someone must be a "lawman" in order to carry a gun to protect themselves and their loved ones?

Or that a certain level of mastery with firearms is a prerequisite to being able to carry one?


Shame on you.
Shame on you.
Shame on you.
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Old August 10, 2018, 08:41 PM   #34
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FUDD FEST....
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:40 PM   #35
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dogtown, well stated. Who are these people? This is scary. I expect this foolishness from the general public and the morons I rub elbows with on the right coast. But; on a gun forum!
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Old August 10, 2018, 11:17 PM   #36
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In fact, Israel has some pretty restrictive laws on private possession and ownership of firearms.
While I don't know anything about Israeli laws, I do recall a conversation I read about some years ago... (count this as hearsay, as I cannot provide any cites)

A fellow had an Israeli friend visit him in the US. The conversation turned to guns, and the Israeli was mystified about the "American obsession with owning guns". He wasn't against gun, he just didn't understand why we (as a people) felt such a need to own them. He then said, "if you are going to go through an area where you might need a gun, just go down to the armory and check out an Uzi. Then turn it back in when you're done."

When his American friend explained "that's not possible under US law" the Israeli was astounded at "the foolishness" of it.

I guess living somewhere like Israel gives one a different perspective on gun control...
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Old August 11, 2018, 08:24 AM   #37
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......However, the reality is the America has the most guns/population execpt maybe israel. They have very strict gun laws & almost everyone gets Military teaching & weapon training via their mandate that almost all women&/or men are better ment serve in one of their trained than we are. they have a military reason for this.
We have more legally owned guns by civilians than anywhere else. We do need to get guns back in the schools...right next to the condom training and mandatory cricket days in PE class.

Quote:
I still feel that the NRA Has become the voice of the weapons mfg. They told us that when Obama was Potus, he'd take away our rights to carry weapons. It never happened!!!!! Gun purchases went through the roof & the was our trusted IRA He absplutely didn't This was one big fat lie. Then, why did gun sales drop when Trump came into being ??
Really? Obama and his team got every mile they could out of every shooting. They just never could get the laws passed. One of the problems of representative government, I guess.
If Hillary won, that would be seen as a mandate for a full gun ban. The pressure would be enormous.

So, why do you think the NRA is a voice of gun makers? That really was originated as gun control speak. It is a talking point meant to separate Fudds from the NRA. It works by alienating part time gun owners from the NRA message. It also works because the current NRA brass are fear mongers and are killing off membership with continued messages of fear. Too bad that we couldn’t get more people elected to turn away the fear message.

Quote:
....As to arming our teachers. They have a ton of reason not to have a un. These people are "TEACHERS" not lawmen nor educated enogh to carryinf in class a weapon
I like giving teachers the option to arm themselves. That is the limit of my support. I don’t want to force anybody to carry.

You have to remember the key talking points of anti-gunners. Do they support police having gun....yes. Do they support bodyguards having guns.....yes. Do they support armed security having guns....yes. Do they support armed security at sporting event/community events.....yep. Do they support complex licensing so ccw licenses can be limited to their circle of upstanding folks....yes. Do they support control through fees and pricing....yep. Do they support disarming criminals with search and seizure policies in criminal neighborhoods.....nope.

So, what guns do they want banned. They want reasonably priced guns owned by average folks restricted. Restricted to a ban on commoners with little effort at reducing criminal or wealthy elite gun ownership.

Last edited by Nathan; August 11, 2018 at 09:27 AM.
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Old August 11, 2018, 09:45 AM   #38
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Last, I'd like the Forum to weigh into this & how do we protect our children and our general population from people who have no darn rights to own/carry guns?
There is no “one-size-fits-all” system of protection... If there was, we wouldn’t be having this discussion; everyone is safe therefore no need for a gun.
I’m certain that a person that can achieve the requirements to become a high school algebra teacher can be taught to safely carry a gun if willing. We used to teach teenage conscripts to handle a gun safely against their will. We have the ability to teach people even better than law enforcement and the military. The NRA could probably get some highly competent teachers trained well if it weren’t so hamstringed by handwringing politicians and Fudds. Police will not be there to prevent you from becoming a victim. After you’ve become a victim, your iPhone cannot be dialed while it’s covered with your own blood (I know this personally). If you survive: your wounds will be treated, your statement will be taken, the assailant will be arrested and in a few days the person will be out of jail to do as they please. You are in charge of your own safety. You can: hire people to protect you, you can protect yourself or you can let an overworked police officer to look for your killer...
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Old August 11, 2018, 10:08 AM   #39
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This statement is 100% correct...
Quote:
Restricted to a ban on commoners with little effort at reducing criminal or wealthy elite gun ownership
...which should tell you all that you need to know.
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Old August 11, 2018, 03:35 PM   #40
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
...I guess living somewhere like Israel gives one a different perspective on gun control.
Let's have a look at some more authoritative sources regarding the gun laws of Israel:
  1. This is from the website of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership:
    Quote:
    The Israel Dept. of the Interior makes notification to the general public the requirements necessary for the obtaining of a permit to possess a firearm:

    1. Applicant must be a permanent resident of Israel for 3 consecutive years prior to making application for a firearms permit.

    2. Applicant must be 21 years of age.

    3. The permit request must be for personal use, not to engage in the business of firearms sales.

    4. Applicant must fall into one of the following categories:

    a. Part-time reservist (volunteer) for 3 years- may own 1 handgun
    b. Such a reservist (volunteer) is a member of a gun club - may own 1 rifle
    c. Professional, licensed public transportation driver, transporting a minimum of 5 passengers - may own 1 handgun
    d. Licensed animal control officer- may own 2 hunting rifles, *not* full automatic weapons, or semi-automatic weapons with a limited capacity magazine.
    e. Full-time dealer of jewelry or large sums of cash or valuables - may own 1 handgun

    West Bank and Gaza Strip Settlers:

    1. A resident in a militarily strategic buffer zone, essential to the security of the State of Israel - may own 1 handgun

    2. A business owner in these geographic areas - may own 1 handgun

    Veterans:

    1. Veterans of the Regular Army honorably discharged with the rank of non-commissioned officer, and veterans of the Reserve Army with the rank of regimental commander- may own 1 handgun

    2. Retired law enforcement officers with the rank of sergeant - may own 1 handgun

    3. Retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander- may own 1 handgun

    Individuals:

    Upon presenting documentation that one is about to receive a souvenir, a prize, an inheritance, or an award of appreciation from the Israel military.

    People of the Gun by Larry Derfner (in the Jerusalem Post, May 19, 2002)
  2. According to the NRA-ILA:
    Quote:
    ...Israel typically has very stringent firearm licensing requirements that have gotten progressively stricter over the course of the last two decades. However, just last year, government officials were forced to ease restrictions on carrying firearms following a brutal terrorist attack that resulted in the murder of four Orthodox Jewish men in a West Jerusalem Temple.

    Unfortunately, as the Bloomberg News article makes clear, some law-abiding civilians are unable to get a firearms license even with the relaxed rules. Segev Gorbitz of Jerusalem told the outlet, “[i]t’s not right… I want a gun to defend myself and my family, and if you’re an Israeli like me who served in the army and have no criminal record, you should be able to get one.”

    Remarkably, even given the present dire situation, Israel’s anti-gun activists are still out in force. The AFP article quoted a leader of an Israeli anti-gun coalition called Gun Free Kitchen Tables, who told the outlet, “[i]n the long run it is obvious that more weapons creates more danger, not more security but the opposite… Encouraging civilians to use firearms on the street could lead to very unfortunate results.” ....
  3. This recent article mentions new, eased permit requirements, but they remain draconian:
    Quote:
    ...Access to gun permits in Israel have been restricted to graduates of certain Israel Defense Forces and police units and those above certain ranks; those employed in jobs where cash is handled, like taxi drivers; and residents of Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria — commonly known as the West Bank — who often encounter Palestinian stone-throwers on the road.

    Under the new policy, as reported in the Israeli media including the Times of Israel, lower-ranking former officers will now be approved for licenses as well as residents of towns considered under heightened danger.

    Gun licenses must be renewed every few years, which involves a medical and mental health exam and practice at a shooting range.....

There are plenty of people in Israel who are legally carrying a gun in public, but they are not "just plain folks" like the gun owners in the United States. If you are legally carrying a gun in public in Israel you are (1) active duty military; or (2) a police officer; or (3) one of the select few* licensed to carry a firearm.
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Old August 11, 2018, 04:11 PM   #41
seeker_two
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Originally Posted by adamBomb View Post



When addressing the NY Times - NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch says “We’ve had it with your narratives, your propaganda, your fake news. We’ve had it with your constant protection of your Democrat overlords, your refusal to acknowledge any truth that upsets the fragile construct that you believe is real life. And we’ve had it with your tone-deaf assertion that you are in any way truth or fact-based journalism,” Loesch says. “Consider this the shot across your proverbial bow. … In short? We’re coming for you.”
I'm good with her statement....other than the fact that the NRA executive leadership seems to be a bit more tepid in their commitment than their spokespeople.....



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Old August 16, 2018, 10:49 AM   #42
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Well, I don't think NRA changing is the problem. The problem is society is changing. It wasn't that long ago that kids didn't take their shotgun to school and leave it in their truck for after school. As our society has become less parented by the parents and more by the government the people growing up now have lost touch with what it means to be a responsible citizen. The criminal justice system doesn't help the situation when kids are taught that nothing happens for criminal behavior. A slap on the wrist and a little time in lock up and you are out running with the bros again. Then there are "zero tolerance" policies where kids are suspended for even a minor scrap. When relatively good kids are sent to continued education they often fall in with all sorts of bad people.


Now I support the elimination of gun free zones for schools. I think that they just attract criminals. What we need is not for every teacher to be armed, but for arms to be available to administrators and other trusted people such as maintenance workers who are unpredictable in their routines. I don't even think every person that could be armed needs to carry. I believe hidden secure weapons that can be accessed only by authorized personnel during an emergency would suffice. No reason for a kindergarten teacher to carry a 38 in an ankle holster. Relying only on police response is delaying life saving help to school children in a crisis. Some talk about "common sense" gun control but they don't seem to have any of that good old common sense when considering proposals like the one I have outlined for arming schools. Guns can kill or be used to save life. Blindly insisting they can only do more harm than good is foolish. rc
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Old August 16, 2018, 07:10 PM   #43
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rc ….. What we need is not for every teacher to be armed, but for arms to be available to administrators and other trusted people such as maintenance workers who are unpredictable in their routines.
If you don't trust your child's teacher then WHY THE HECK do you leave them at that school?

What on earth makes you think the custodian is more trustworthy?
What makes you think an administrator is more trustworthy?
After all the administrator used to be a teacher.

Unbelievable.




Quote:
I don't even think every person that could be armed needs to carry. I believe hidden secure weapons that can be accessed only by authorized personnel during an emergency would suffice.
"Gun lockers" may sound like a great idea but are not. How many police officers keep their handgun locked away? None I would hope.

When there is a need for an armed response RIGHT NOW...….oh wait how do I get past the bad guy to the gun locker and whats the combination?

Again, unbelievable.



Quote:
No reason for a kindergarten teacher to carry a 38 in an ankle holster.
Because the bad guys never attack kindergarten teachers or students?
That's the dumbest comment yet.

Either you support the Second Amendment or you don't. You don't.




Quote:
Relying only on police response is delaying life saving help to school children in a crisis.
Yet you propose keeping guns in locked storage until needed. Do you not see how silly that is. When a gun is needed it's needed RIGHT FREAKING NOW. Not in five minutes, not in two minutes.


Quote:
Some talk about "common sense" gun control but they don't seem to have any of that good old common sense when considering proposals like the one I have outlined for arming schools.
Your common sense proposals are anything but.



Quote:
Guns can kill or be used to save life. Blindly insisting they can only do more harm than good is foolish. rc
Who is blind here?
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Old August 16, 2018, 08:56 PM   #44
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I don’t ever see a future where there’s widespread use of guns outside of resource officers.
Sure, there are some schools that allow armed staff but I’m sure that that is a rarity.
Most ways of making a school more secure get opposed and shut down anyway.
No one gives suggestions for anything that will have a chance of actually happening anyway.
Do what’s left? Easy, ban specific firearms that are capable of firing rapidly. Not my view on the bans, just how it is. The NRA is the only organization of much magnitude that is even willing to defend gun rights. The most powerful companies in the world along with some of the most powerful governments around the world want our guns gone. A growing number of our own leaders and citizens want our guns gone... This all while fewer entities are on our side. Growing numbers of people consider the NRA a hate group. We should be standing together for all of our rights. Instead we choose to walk on eggshells, cling to an outdated document for protection on our way to bury our heads in the sand.
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