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May 14, 2015, 08:50 AM | #26 | |
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F. Guffey |
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May 15, 2015, 06:52 AM | #27 |
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I stupidly did something like that once. I had 2 identical Arisakas with the exception of one being recut to a 6.5x55. I had more than one box of ammo on the table and reached over (Without looking) and put a 6.5x50 cartridge into the 6.5x55. The extractor held the cartridge to the bolt face and it fired. All I noticed was a lighter recoil. The case had stretched about .200 and formed to the chamber with a new shoulder and a short neck. The primer looked fine. Point is, if the primer is struck hard enough, the case will expand faster than the the case can be pushed forward.
I will toss out this example of the "Other headspace". Maybe we should call it "Side space". I was at the range one day and someone next to me put a .300 Savage into a 7.62x54R Russian rifle. (Same thing, couple boxes on the bench). He noticed the light recoil right away. We looked at the .300 case and it looked the same as the other cases that were fired IN a .300 Savage. This was factory ammo and probably loaded on the low side. I never checked it out, but by eye, the shoulder length on BOTH the .300 and Russian look really close. It would be a chore to check this out because both have a different headspace points. Maybe the headspace was OK, but the "Sidespace" could not have been. On occasion, I have made new bolts to correct a headspace problem when setting back the barrel was not an option. I remember one rifle where I got the headspace nice and tight, but still had a lot of case stretch (Sideways). I suspect the reamer was O/S at the factory. This is not uncommon with rimmed cases, as the case dimensions are locked into the rim on most reamers. Anyway, it was plenty safe to shoot, but the longevity of the brass to reload was reduced. That is enough for one morning. I better switch to DeCaf. |
May 17, 2015, 11:28 AM | #28 | |
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Also, the inertia of a round is going to vary with the mass of the round. Smaller cases are going to have less inertia. The pressure of a firing pin (or hammer) spring is measured in pounds, often over a dozen pounds. A loaded round weighs what? less than an ounce, usually. I just don't see inertial alone holding the case in place long enough to crush the primer.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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May 17, 2015, 11:42 AM | #29 |
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44 AMP,
1 ounce = 437.5 grains. There are 7,000 grains in a pound. Then there is that .7854 thing, I have killer firing pins. Then there is that thing about millage. And there are variables, and there is that very boring conversation that starts with "Hatcher said". Forgive, there are factors. F. Guffey |
May 17, 2015, 12:17 PM | #30 |
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The firing pin of a AR-15 weighs about 120 grains. There are titanium firing pins available that only weigh 70 grains.
A .223 round with a 60 grain bullet weighs about 180 grains. Now, if that 120 grain, or even a 70 grain titanium firing pin can crush the primer with its inertia, why can't a 180 grain cartridge have enough inertia to act as an anvil? The spring does not push the firing pin into the primer. It's not nearly strong enough. Prove it to yourself. Chamber a primed case in a bolt action rifle. Lower the firing pin by holding the trigger back as you slowly close the bolt. Open the bolt. Do you see a dent in the primer?
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May 17, 2015, 12:50 PM | #31 | |
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It was suggested I was wrong, seems someone Velcro-ed a case into a large chamber, closed the bolt and then pulled the trigger. F. Guffey |
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May 17, 2015, 02:50 PM | #32 | |
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I contend a bullet that jumps to the lands slows down if not stops when it hits the lands . Hmm that to me would be when the bullet looks back at you and asks "a what now" . Unlike a bullet jammed in the lands . If the bullet never hit a resistance point in the firing process like running square into a smaller section to squeeze into it never gets a chance to think what it's supposed to do next . It just continually goes faster and faster never getting a chance to rethink it's objective . Now I'm in no way saying one is better then the other . Only that when jumping a bullet to the lands . That creates a secondary effect on the bullet that does not happen if the bullet is already in the lands .
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May 17, 2015, 10:42 PM | #33 | |
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Jumps, slows down or stops? All that in milliseconds while the powder is burning and building pressure. And then? After stopping and or slowing down it has to start moving again. F. Guffey |
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May 17, 2015, 10:52 PM | #34 | |
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Again, I am the fan of the running start. F. Guffey Same thing with the firing pin. My firing pins have the running start. |
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May 17, 2015, 10:58 PM | #35 |
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I never said it was easier just that there is no secondary action/disruption to the bullet if the bullet is already in the lands .
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
May 18, 2015, 05:25 AM | #36 | |
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Then there was the shooter that purchased 308 Winchester ammo for a 25/06 chamber. That was in central N. Texas. He was going to sue everyone. F. Guffey |
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May 18, 2015, 08:29 AM | #37 |
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Consider that Weatherby cartridges require a freebore to keep pressure from spiking to dangerous levels. That backs Mr Guffey's "running start". I do not and will not knowingly jam a bullet into the lands when it's chambered. You can if you want to.
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May 18, 2015, 09:59 AM | #38 | |
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Now it's been a couple years but I do remember reading a study or test that suggested the bullet slows or does not accelerate equally when it hits the lands from a jump . I'll try to find it .
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; May 18, 2015 at 12:07 PM. |
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May 18, 2015, 11:22 AM | #39 | |
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There is nothing about pulling the trigger on a round with the bullet seated into the lads that impresses me. Then there is that other often repeated story about the firing pin driving everything to the front of the chamber. If the bullet is stuck into the lands and then the firing pin drives it further after the primer is struck the bullet is more stuck? Or the bullet is driven back into the case, and that presents another problem with pressure, seating the bullet back into the case increases pressure. F. Guffey |
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May 18, 2015, 12:06 PM | #40 |
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Yep
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May 18, 2015, 04:27 PM | #41 |
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I thought head space was the area under your hat !
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May 18, 2015, 05:14 PM | #42 |
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This is the way I think about it.
A cartridge can only go so far into an open chamber. Imagine you take your gun apart (it's easy with a pistol) and you have the chamber in your hand and you drop a cartridge into the chamber. It will only go so far because something stops it from going too far in. On some rifle cartridges like a .223 REM or .30-06 it is the shoulder of the case, thus I have heard people say that those cartridges head space off of the shoulder. Now, I don't know if they should say it that way, but I hear it all the time. A .22 Long Rifle stops going in when the rim of the cartridge contacts the ledge in the chamber. A 9 mm stops going in when the edge of the case mouth (right next to the bullet) contacts an edge inside of the chamber. All of that to describe dropping a cartridge into an open chamber. Now let's close the chamber so to speak. In a bolt action rifle, that would be closing the bolt. Now remember the head of cartridge is the end where the primer / makers mark / caliber are located. Once closed, the head space is the distance between the closed bolt's face and the head of the cartridge. A perfect fit would mean there is no space, the bolt's face is touching the head of the cartridge. Now imagine a .223 cartridge where it was resized incorrectly and the shoulder was mashed down from the case mouth towards the case head. Now, when you drop this cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt there is a space between the bolt's face and the case's head. At some point too much space between the bolt face and the case head become an issue. Imagine a 9mm cartridge where the case was trimmed too much and now the case / brass is shorter than it should be. When it goes into the chamber and the slide closes there is space between the case's head and the breech face. That is the way I think about it.
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May 18, 2015, 05:43 PM | #43 | |
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
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May 18, 2015, 06:25 PM | #44 |
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Then what is the space between the case head and the bolt face called?
Am I missing something? I don't know. I am talking about reloading, not setting up a rifle or re-barrelling a rifle. This means that I am working with a rifle that has been properly setup and has had the space measured from the bolt face to the point in the chamber that is used for stopping the forward motion of a cartridge. If you resize your case incorrectly and push the shoulder back to far, what have you messed up? The head space? So, again, what is it called when you do this? The space between the bolt face and the head of the case, what is that called?
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May 18, 2015, 06:31 PM | #45 |
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Go back to the first part of this discussion and read what UncleNick said. Or read the Port-a-pottie analogy.
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May 18, 2015, 06:46 PM | #46 | |
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Its called the space between the case head and the bolt face
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
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May 18, 2015, 07:07 PM | #47 |
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How about head clearance?
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May 18, 2015, 07:47 PM | #48 |
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LOL.
Here is why I said what I said, I have two reloading manuals. Speers #14 and Hornady 8th. From Speers, page 87: "Remember that most bottleneck cases headspace on the shoulder. With the proper die setting, the shoulder will not be pushed back past its original position. Pushing the shoulder beyond this point will create excessive headspace." From Hornady page 15: "As the firing pin strikes, it moves the case forward to contact the front of the chamber, giving a little headspace -- but not a dangerous amount." So, with all of the statements that head space is the distance between the breech face and the point in the chamber used to stop the forward travel of a case and that it is fixed is contradicted by the statement that you can create headspace from these two reloading manuals. The Hornady manual shows a picture of the gap between the bolt face and the case head and indicate that to be the created head space. So, if it can be created by setting the shoulder back too much, then the cartridge does have something to do with it. If one thing is for sure in my mind, the term is used in two different ways in my reloading manuals.
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SirGilligan - "If you find your back is up against a wall, maybe you have been backing up for too long." iOS Apps: BallisticsGL Gun Log Gun Log SPC WatchForce Last edited by sirgilligan; May 18, 2015 at 08:18 PM. |
May 18, 2015, 07:59 PM | #49 | |
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Here is an online resource, for those that don't have the same manuals. The author designates two types of head space. Chamber headspace and cartridge headspace length.
http://www.massreloading.com/bottlen..._resizing.html Quote:
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May 18, 2015, 08:06 PM | #50 |
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Here is another online article that I just "re-found". I read it a while back.
http://www.larrywillis.com/headspace.html "The term headspace means the "space" between the "head" of your case and the breech. This space (clearance) is set when your barrel is installed. Handloaders should minimize the chamber clearance that their handloads have in their chamber."
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