Lake City pulldown 7.62 and Lee Collet die

Marco Califo · July 14, 2019, 09:06 PM

I bought some of www.Midsouthshooterssupply.com pulldown. These were not pulled-down because of age, the headstamps were recent. 7.62/308. Any sealant looks to have been removed. They are primed and crimped and I will load them, I was able to locate my Lee 308 Collet neck sizing die. Since I am leaving the primer in for use, I do not want to deprime. The collet die has a depriming pin. As I recall, I want to remove the depriming pin only, and leave the neck expander in place. And then, neck size. Thoughts?

hounddawg · July 14, 2019, 10:14 PM

take a dremel and cut the decapping pin off. I decap separately and have used the Lee collet die many times like that

**Unclenick** · July 15, 2019, 08:57 AM

Lee will sell you a new mandrel for $4.

Marco Califo · July 15, 2019, 09:08 PM

So, UncleNick, You are endorsing grinding the pin down. I will do that, but in my case, I just do not deprime with rifle sizing dies. So I think if just goes away. Looking at the mandrel photo and spec, .3055, I see there is no expander ball. The collect just press the brass toward the mandrel.

T. O'Heir · July 16, 2019, 12:33 PM

"...And then, neck size..." Shooting it out of what? A semi-auto, lever or pump action requires FL resizing. Neck sizing is for brass fired out of the same rifle.
Does the decapping pin not come out of the Lee collet die without cutting? Just like any other die.

Marco Califo · July 16, 2019, 01:36 PM

Neck sizing in this specific instance is to ensure consistent neck tension ONLY. Ohair, did you read the first post? Or the Title?

**Unclenick** · July 17, 2019, 09:59 AM

Yep. Sounds like you don't need the decapping pin at all, then. I do the same, decapping with a Lee Universal Depriming/Decapping Die before tumbling brass.

The main advantage of the Collet Dies is the lack of an expander means there is nothing to pull the neck off the overall case axis, as shown in this YouTube video. I neck size with a Collet Die and size the rest of the case with a Redding body die. It keeps the case runout down.

Marco Califo · July 17, 2019, 01:56 PM

I took apart my collet die this morning and the mandrel looks like it is one machined piece, straight cylinder with the deprime protrudence integral. So will grind off.

Bart B. · July 17, 2019, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

I neck size with a Collet Die and size the rest of the case with a Redding body die. It keeps the case runout down.

Does this method make the case necks well centered on the case shoulder?

I ask because the rimless bottleneck case shoulder, not body, is what centers the front of the round in the barrel when fired. Case necks are typically not touching any part of the chamber neck when fired.

**Unclenick** · July 18, 2019, 09:06 AM

The Body die is the same as regular sizing dies except the die neck is slightly too wide to touch the case neck. So it does as well about the shoulder and body symmetry as any other sizing die does. Keeping the neck from bending, as the collet die does, then makes sure the centered and not-touching neck is pointing straight into the throat at firing and not introducing an angle to the bullet's entry there.

Bart B. · July 18, 2019, 02:38 PM

If the sizing results in necks as straight as honed out necks in full length dies make, that is good.

OldNick · July 18, 2019, 08:11 PM

No need too grind the depriming pin off. Just grab hold of it with pliers, and pull it out.

hounddawg · July 18, 2019, 09:47 PM

Quote:

No need too grind the depriming pin off. Just grab hold of it with pliers, and pull it out.
Today 03:38 PM

well I just learned something new, went and looked at my spare and it is 2 piece. thanks

Marco Califo · July 18, 2019, 10:34 PM

Mine, which is a Lee 308 Win DO, did not pull out. I tried to cut through it with the wire cutter blade, no go there either. Then I grabbed it again with the pliers and bent it back and forth a couple times and it did snap off.
I just tried it, just put in a Lee hand press with the 308/45 shell holder and it slid right into the dies to where the die and shell holder met. Not even any lube. I am pointing that out because that is how I proved I did not need to grind. It broke off close to the tangent, and that was plenty short enough that mandrel, minus its spike, did not come close to the primer or even the brass at that end.

**Unclenick** · July 19, 2019, 12:41 PM

Yes. That pin is hardened and is press-fit into the mandrel. I never tried simply pulling one out and may give it a go. I always used a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove them.

Marco Califo · July 19, 2019, 11:56 PM

Quote:

The Body die is the same as regular sizing dies except the die neck is slightly too wide to touch the case neck. So it does as well about the shoulder and body symmetry as any other sizing die does.

I am looking at Redding's body die ($30 at Midsouth). I think if it works for 308/7.62, then it should also work fine for 7mm-08. Redding also makes a 7mm-08 body die, too. I think the 308 body should work for body sizing for both.

The Pull-down LC 7.62 were LC 18.

**Unclenick** · July 21, 2019, 10:28 AM

Marco,

I wouldn't count on that dual-use. The neck area on my copy of the .308 Win body die is just 0.002" over the maximum chamber neck diameter near the shoulder. If you push in a case with a neck that is narrower than the neck portion of the die, you may leave an unresized ring of brass at the neck and shoulder junction. I would also be concerned a case with uneven walls could let a narrower neck go off-center. But I don't own a 7mm-08, so this is just speculation on my part.

If you are going to get a body die for .308 Win anyway, you should try it on the 7mm-08 and let us know if it works or not. You could also call Redding and see what they have to say about it.

Marco Califo · July 22, 2019, 08:52 AM

Good point UncleNick. I also have full length sizing 7mm-08 die set (Lee), and will get the neck sizer in 7mm-08 too.
The standard 7mm-08 sizer, with spindle removed would also work for the body sizing task?

**Unclenick** · July 22, 2019, 09:20 AM

It will also size the neck down, though. The Body Die skips the neck so the Lee Collet Die can be used on it separately. However, sizing the body in a standard die at least will not pull the neck off-axis. If you decap separately and use the Lee FL sizing die, the neck will come out narrower than you need (they are made small enough to resize the thinnest neck walls the SAAMI standard allows). This still leaves you with figuring out how to expand it without moving it off-center. One approach is to get a Lyman M-Die for your chambering and to push the case into it just far enough to expand the neck and get the small step at the mouth but not to actually flare it. Expanding by pushing into the resized neck (with inside neck lube) rather than withdrawing it over an expander does not tend to move necks off-axis. The Mpdie produces a nice square seat to set the bullet into, which keeps it straight as you start it into the seating die. It then stays straight. It's another popular tactic for limiting cartridge runout.

Bart B. · July 22, 2019, 09:47 AM

Redding says their body dies allow their sizing bushings to move sideways aligning with the case neck. That puts the bushing axis off the die shoulder and body axes.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/on...s-bushing-dies

Therefore, in my opinion, if the case neck walls are not uniform thickness, the neck inside axis can be off center to the case shoulder axis.

I prefer full length sizing dies with their necks fixed in place well centered on die shoulder and body axes. Cases full into them have outside diameters centered one one axis.

**Unclenick** · July 22, 2019, 10:12 AM

The Redding body dies and small base body dies have no bushing, decapper, or expander. They are just a single, solid piece of steel. Redding S type FL sizing dies have a bushing and all those other things and Redding says they can be used without a bushing to serve as body dies. But with the bushings sold separately they cost more than the body die and the Lee Collet Die combined.

Bart B. · July 22, 2019, 10:36 AM

That is correct. Two types of Redding "body" dies. One costs more.

In an email chat with Redding some years ago, Redding said the unsized several thousandths of case necks next to shoulders by bushings in their FL bushing dies helps center case necks in chamber necks. I asked if standard FL dies without expanders would center case necks on case shoulders then center them in chamber necks when fired. In so many words, their response was no as that short/small unsized "shoulder" on the case neck was better.

Many believe cases rest in the chamber bottom until they expand to chamber limits at peak pressure. Sierra Bullets stated this in their reloading data books for years.

Marco Califo · August 3, 2019, 02:02 PM

I started neck sizing the 7.62 pulldown. I checked them in my Sheridan 308 case gage (with the cut out). Some would not drop into the case gage fully.

To successfully neck-size 50, I had to try 74, and set 24 aside for later body sizing. Well, that got me to order the Redding 308 body sizing die. Those 24 stuck out of the gage by 1/8 - 1/16 of an inch. The 50 good ones dropped right in.

I am thinking this pulldown unfired brass, all head-stamped LC 18 (and thus, not pulled down due to storage time), may have been pulled down due to body diameter being out of spec, and thus rejected by U.S.

I got 250 for $49.99 on sale at Midsouthshootersupply.com. The price went back up to $79.99. I do not think the higher price is a good value, if the sizing was out of spec.

**Unclenick** · August 4, 2019, 09:12 AM

Probably not sized out of spec, but distorted by pulling, which can stretch the neck forward and oval the shoulder profile in brass pieces that aren't perfectly uniform in wall thickness.

Marco Califo · August 4, 2019, 03:42 PM

I got out one of my dial micrometers to try to locate the issue. Every measurement shown on the Sierra 5.0 308 diagram was within spec, except for trim to length (length of unloaded brass) was .003 over for the bad cases, and .002 under for the good ones. This seems to confirm Unclenick's comment about neck stretching (and presumed shoulder profile effect). That would not be fixed by body sizing. And neck sizing does not.
I think the outcome, and conclusion, is that I will need to deprime and full length size those bad cases before loading them.

July 14, 2019, 09:06 PM	#1
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Lake City pulldown 7.62 and Lee Collet die I bought some of www.Midsouthshooterssupply.com pulldown. These were not pulled-down because of age, the headstamps were recent. 7.62/308. Any sealant looks to have been removed. They are primed and crimped and I will load them, I was able to locate my Lee 308 Collet neck sizing die. Since I am leaving the primer in for use, I do not want to deprime. The collet die has a depriming pin. As I recall, I want to remove the depriming pin only, and leave the neck expander in place. And then, neck size. Thoughts? __________________ ............

July 14, 2019, 10:14 PM	#2
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	take a dremel and cut the decapping pin off. I decap separately and have used the Lee collet die many times like that __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

July 15, 2019, 08:57 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Lee will sell you a new mandrel for $4. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 15, 2019, 09:08 PM	#4
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	So, UncleNick, You are endorsing grinding the pin down. I will do that, but in my case, I just do not deprime with rifle sizing dies. So I think if just goes away. Looking at the mandrel photo and spec, .3055, I see there is no expander ball. The collect just press the brass toward the mandrel. __________________ ............

July 16, 2019, 12:33 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...And then, neck size..." Shooting it out of what? A semi-auto, lever or pump action requires FL resizing. Neck sizing is for brass fired out of the same rifle. Does the decapping pin not come out of the Lee collet die without cutting? Just like any other die. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 16, 2019, 01:36 PM	#6
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Neck sizing in this specific instance is to ensure consistent neck tension ONLY. Ohair, did you read the first post? Or the Title? __________________ ............

July 17, 2019, 09:59 AM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yep. Sounds like you don't need the decapping pin at all, then. I do the same, decapping with a Lee Universal Depriming/Decapping Die before tumbling brass. The main advantage of the Collet Dies is the lack of an expander means there is nothing to pull the neck off the overall case axis, as shown in this YouTube video. I neck size with a Collet Die and size the rest of the case with a Redding body die. It keeps the case runout down. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 17, 2019, 01:56 PM	#8
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	I took apart my collet die this morning and the mandrel looks like it is one machined piece, straight cylinder with the deprime protrudence integral. So will grind off. __________________ ............

July 18, 2019, 09:06 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The Body die is the same as regular sizing dies except the die neck is slightly too wide to touch the case neck. So it does as well about the shoulder and body symmetry as any other sizing die does. Keeping the neck from bending, as the collet die does, then makes sure the centered and not-touching neck is pointing straight into the throat at firing and not introducing an angle to the bullet's entry there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 18, 2019, 02:38 PM	#11
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	If the sizing results in necks as straight as honed out necks in full length dies make, that is good.

July 18, 2019, 08:11 PM	#12
OldNick Member Join Date: August 1, 2018 Location: Out in the red dirt Posts: 26	No need too grind the depriming pin off. Just grab hold of it with pliers, and pull it out.

July 18, 2019, 10:34 PM	#14
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Mine, which is a Lee 308 Win DO, did not pull out. I tried to cut through it with the wire cutter blade, no go there either. Then I grabbed it again with the pliers and bent it back and forth a couple times and it did snap off. I just tried it, just put in a Lee hand press with the 308/45 shell holder and it slid right into the dies to where the die and shell holder met. Not even any lube. I am pointing that out because that is how I proved I did not need to grind. It broke off close to the tangent, and that was plenty short enough that mandrel, minus its spike, did not come close to the primer or even the brass at that end. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; July 18, 2019 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Clarify

July 19, 2019, 12:41 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yes. That pin is hardened and is press-fit into the mandrel. I never tried simply pulling one out and may give it a go. I always used a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove them. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 21, 2019, 10:28 AM	#17
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Marco, I wouldn't count on that dual-use. The neck area on my copy of the .308 Win body die is just 0.002" over the maximum chamber neck diameter near the shoulder. If you push in a case with a neck that is narrower than the neck portion of the die, you may leave an unresized ring of brass at the neck and shoulder junction. I would also be concerned a case with uneven walls could let a narrower neck go off-center. But I don't own a 7mm-08, so this is just speculation on my part. If you are going to get a body die for .308 Win anyway, you should try it on the 7mm-08 and let us know if it works or not. You could also call Redding and see what they have to say about it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 22, 2019, 08:52 AM	#18
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Good point UncleNick. I also have full length sizing 7mm-08 die set (Lee), and will get the neck sizer in 7mm-08 too. The standard 7mm-08 sizer, with spindle removed would also work for the body sizing task? __________________ ............

July 22, 2019, 09:20 AM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It will also size the neck down, though. The Body Die skips the neck so the Lee Collet Die can be used on it separately. However, sizing the body in a standard die at least will not pull the neck off-axis. If you decap separately and use the Lee FL sizing die, the neck will come out narrower than you need (they are made small enough to resize the thinnest neck walls the SAAMI standard allows). This still leaves you with figuring out how to expand it without moving it off-center. One approach is to get a Lyman M-Die for your chambering and to push the case into it just far enough to expand the neck and get the small step at the mouth but not to actually flare it. Expanding by pushing into the resized neck (with inside neck lube) rather than withdrawing it over an expander does not tend to move necks off-axis. The Mpdie produces a nice square seat to set the bullet into, which keeps it straight as you start it into the seating die. It then stays straight. It's another popular tactic for limiting cartridge runout. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 22, 2019, 09:47 AM	#20
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Redding says their body dies allow their sizing bushings to move sideways aligning with the case neck. That puts the bushing axis off the die shoulder and body axes. https://www.redding-reloading.com/on...s-bushing-dies Therefore, in my opinion, if the case neck walls are not uniform thickness, the neck inside axis can be off center to the case shoulder axis. I prefer full length sizing dies with their necks fixed in place well centered on die shoulder and body axes. Cases full into them have outside diameters centered one one axis. Last edited by Bart B.; July 22, 2019 at 09:58 AM.

July 22, 2019, 10:12 AM	#21
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The Redding body dies and small base body dies have no bushing, decapper, or expander. They are just a single, solid piece of steel. Redding S type FL sizing dies have a bushing and all those other things and Redding says they can be used without a bushing to serve as body dies. But with the bushings sold separately they cost more than the body die and the Lee Collet Die combined. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 22, 2019, 10:36 AM	#22
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	That is correct. Two types of Redding "body" dies. One costs more. In an email chat with Redding some years ago, Redding said the unsized several thousandths of case necks next to shoulders by bushings in their FL bushing dies helps center case necks in chamber necks. I asked if standard FL dies without expanders would center case necks on case shoulders then center them in chamber necks when fired. In so many words, their response was no as that short/small unsized "shoulder" on the case neck was better. Many believe cases rest in the chamber bottom until they expand to chamber limits at peak pressure. Sierra Bullets stated this in their reloading data books for years. Last edited by Bart B.; July 22, 2019 at 11:55 AM.

August 3, 2019, 02:02 PM	#23
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Pulldown cases body or shoulder out of spec I started neck sizing the 7.62 pulldown. I checked them in my Sheridan 308 case gage (with the cut out). Some would not drop into the case gage fully. To successfully neck-size 50, I had to try 74, and set 24 aside for later body sizing. Well, that got me to order the Redding 308 body sizing die. Those 24 stuck out of the gage by 1/8 - 1/16 of an inch. The 50 good ones dropped right in. I am thinking this pulldown unfired brass, all head-stamped LC 18 (and thus, not pulled down due to storage time), may have been pulled down due to body diameter being out of spec, and thus rejected by U.S. I got 250 for $49.99 on sale at Midsouthshootersupply.com. The price went back up to $79.99. I do not think the higher price is a good value, if the sizing was out of spec. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; August 6, 2019 at 11:22 PM. Reason: body not out of spec is not the only possibility

August 4, 2019, 09:12 AM	#24
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Probably not sized out of spec, but distorted by pulling, which can stretch the neck forward and oval the shoulder profile in brass pieces that aren't perfectly uniform in wall thickness. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 4, 2019, 03:42 PM	#25
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	I got out one of my dial micrometers to try to locate the issue. Every measurement shown on the Sierra 5.0 308 diagram was within spec, except for trim to length (length of unloaded brass) was .003 over for the bad cases, and .002 under for the good ones. This seems to confirm Unclenick's comment about neck stretching (and presumed shoulder profile effect). That would not be fixed by body sizing. And neck sizing does not. I think the outcome, and conclusion, is that I will need to deprime and full length size those bad cases before loading them. __________________ ............