Please help in identifying potential leading issues

[Doyle]

It may be hard to believe but in almost 50 years of shooting I've never done any significant shooting with any round which would potentially cause leading. What few LRNs I've shot over the years were all factory loads (which are generally low velocity).

Well, I'm about to start loading up a bunch of swaged Speer LSWC 158gr in a 4" Ruger .357. I'll probably be loading these to a medium velocity (aiming for somewhere around 1050-1100 fps - maybe a tad faster if they don't cause leading).
> If there is going to be a leading issue with a particular load, how many rounds would you expect it would take before it becomes visibly noticeable?
> Where on a barrel would leading first show up - muzzle end or forcing cone end?

Thanks.

[David R]

Hello, you have the cart in front of the horse.

The bullet has to fit the bore snug. It has to be of hardness to fit the applicaton.

The revolver cylinder throats have to be similar size as the bore.

If these are met it will probably not lead. Every gun has its own mind. I have shot tens of thousands of lead bullets with only problems in one gun. After a bunch of trying, I sold it.

Powder coated or HiTek coated lead bullets have never caused a problem for me. They are cheap and easy to load using lead data.

Missouri bullet had different hardness for plikers or zoomers.

I cast bullets for 20 years. My best accompllshment was a gas check bullet loaded in my 22-250 at 2750 fps. I shot a 5.5 inch group at 300 yards.

I have been shooting coated for the last 10 years. Zero problems. I shoot bullseye twice a week and Steel bowling pins once a week. 380, 38 sp, 9mm, 32-20 @ 1550 fps, 44 special, 45 ACP (the most) and 45 colt.

IF you do have a problem, ask why and we can figure it out.

IF you do get leading, find an ALL COPPER chore boy. Wrap a few strands around an old bore brush and it will scrub the lead out in no time with little effort.

Have fun, and Good luck.

David

Edit: I just re read your post. Swaged bullets dont usually go that fast. Too soft. A BHN of 12 to 18 would be good for your intended velocity.

I shoot swaged Hollow base Wadcutters in my 38 @ 700 fps.

David

[std7mag]

I don't have a revolver myself, but do shoot a fair bit on lead.
My 1911 with 185gr LSWC i usually keep below 900 fps. Mostly for accuracy than leading.

My Walther PPS 9mm i shoot the 115gr LRN. While best accuracy for jacketed bullets is close to 1,100 fps, i was having accuracy issues at 1,000 fps with the LRN.
Slowed it to 900 fps, and much more accurate now.

My neighbors Taurus 357 i load 158gr LSWC at 38 Splc loads. He doesn't believe lead bullets are good for anything other than target practice.

Some peoples children...

[reddog81]

It depends on what the problem is.

Not enough lube on the bullets will result in leading near the muzzle.
Undersized bullets will result in leading near the forcing cone.
1100 FPS is really fast for a swaged bullet. I’d expect leading all the way down the barrel after a couple of cylinders. I’d start slower.

They have powder coated lead bullets now that’d probably work a lot better for you.

[Doyle]

They have powder coated lead bullets now that’d probably work a lot better for you.

Agreed. However, I happened into a box of 500 of these Speer LSWCs so I've got to load them up and shoot. I think everyone that has responded has made me want to rethink my intended velocity. I'll see if I can load them down to about 1000fps or a tad less and see how they shoot.

[Jim Watson]

Speer data tops out at 1000 fps so as to reduce complaints of leading.

I always got some leading from swaged bullets, even wadcutters at 750 fps.

[Unclenick]

With revolvers the leading potential varies with the individual gun. In general, you want the cylinder throats very close to bullet size. The throats and bullets can be over groove diameter but not under or gas cutting will impact spray base lead against the bore, making a leading mess. I've seen the example of a .45 Colt with chambers for the old .454 groove barrels but with a modern. 451 groove barrel that leaded badly with. 452 bullets but stopped when. 455's (the actual size of the chambers) we're employed.

Another source of trouble is the common problem of the bore being constricted where it screws into the frame. This is from overly snug threads. It can be lapped out, which fixes the problem for all hardnesses of bullets but it is actually less of a problem with soft bullets than with hard ones provied the pressure is great enough to upset the bullets back up to groove diameter after passing through the constriction. This is more likely with fast powders that get pressure up quickly enough not to peak after the bullet is forward of the constriction, by which time the leading is already happening.

Lots of bore tool marks and roughness will pick up lead. Again, lapping can correct it. Firelapping by shooting abrasive embedded bullets will smooth it significantly and tend to correct bores that are tapered the wrong way (wider to tighter, in small measure, is good for accuracy while the converse is bad for accuracy and promotes leading).

If you are lucky, you won't have to do any of that stuff. But I've not usually been that lucky. Except for a couple of. 22's, l've usually had to do all that on top of reaming the throats to uniform diameter. But if you don't plan on doing more lead shooting, for 500 bullets you don't want to get that far into the weeds. You just want to shoot what you've got rather than build a lead bullet gun, and clean it afterwards. I've had good results removing lead with the No Lead solvent. Over about an hour it converts the lead to a crumbly material that patches out easily. But short of that, a few strands of a Chore Boy 100 percent copper scouring pad around a 32 caliber bore brush will scrub the majority of it out, especially after it has been soaked in Kroil or other lead bore cleaner for a few hours first. Just be sure you get an actual copper scoring pad and not one of the cheap copper-plated steel ones, as they can scuff the bore up.

Avoid the temptation to fire jacketed bullets down the bore. It smears the lead out more than it actually cleans, so the bore looks cleaner than it is. I figured this out the hard way forty years ago. You'll hear people say they've done it for years without a problem, but it raises pressure and the major manufacturers all have tales of guns damaged this way. Remember that those who say it's not a problem don't know how much lead your gun has and they generally haven't measured their own bores precisely to monitor for ringing or bulging.

[Howland]

I used to have a Super Blackhawk in .44Mag that I was loading with a stout load for 300gr. SWC and experienced moderate leading. Leading was significantly reduced when I started putting​ a gas check on the bullet base.

[Doyle]

I used to have a Super Blackhawk in .44Mag that I was loading with a stout load for 300gr. SWC and experienced moderate leading. Leading was significantly reduced when I started putting​ a gas check on the bullet base.

I actually thought about gas checks. And, if I were to ever get into shooting lots of soft lead bullets I'd consider investing in a sizing die. But, for only 500 bullets I'm not wanting to go there yet if I an get away with it.

[pete2]

Short answer, you gonna get lead at 1000fps with the soft lead bullets. Order some hard cast of the right diameter an you got a chance of it working. I've shot a lot of 158 RN Speer without much lead accumulation but at about 800 to 850 fps.

[Unclenick]

Maybe. It really depends a lot on the gun's condition. Elmer Keith used 20:1 lead alloy in his hot loaded 44 Specials that were later made by Remington into the .44 Remington Magnum level loads. He found that a little too soft and switched to 16:1. These alloys are in the BHN 9-11 range IIRC, and apparently, that small change settled the leading issue enough for him. But the S&W N-frames made back in the day had very smooth and hand-selected and fit parts. A mirror-finish uniform bore and correctly sized chambers and a cylinder timed to align correctly with the barrel are all you need to cut leading way back.

A cast bullet with a base designed to accept a gas check will eliminate most of the gas cutting that splatters lead against the bore. The swaged lead bullets won't have that and it would be very difficult to roll one in without producing accuracy-affecting distortion. However, there is more than one way to skin that cat. For a time, in the '90s, a number of folks used "p-wads". These were plastic wads originally made by cutting discs from a sheet of 1/16" thick low-density polyethylene with the sharpened mouth of a fired case. They were seated under the bullet and stopped leading almost completely. NECO sells a commercial version. You can, however, also cut discs from milk cartons and stack them. Another trick was to cut a disc from a sheet of cardboard soaked in melted wax and set on the mouth of the case before the bullet is placed there for seating.

[T. O'Heir]

Hodgdon goes to 1247 FPS max load with a cast 158 using Universal powder. Four other Max loads go a tick more than 1100 FPS.
The hardness of the bullet means nothing. You try driving the hardest cast bullet too fast(just how fast, of course, is not defined by anybody) you'll lead the barrel.
This dissertation is fairly reasonable though.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

[mikld]

I use 98% cast lead bullets in my guns. See if you have a problem before you look for any fix. But, for starters I'd say size, or purchase lead bullets the same diameter as the cylinder throats. Any larger and the throats will size them down when fired, and any smaller will allow gas to escape and probably cause leading. Today most cylinder throats are larger than groove diameter so you should get a good bullet to barrel seal. I have tried the "formula" for determining bullet hardness, but found some of my magnum bullets would need to be 22 BHN to shoot without leading the barrel, but my "stand by" alloy of 11-12 BHN works quite well, when bullets are sized to same diameter as cylinder throats. I often use my home made version of Speed Green and any leading I get is very minimal, if at all...

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

…(just how fast, of course, is not defined by anybody)…

Not by how fast, but by how much pressure. Pick up a copy of the Second Edition of the late Richard Lee's book, Modern Reloading. He defines it exactly in terms of the peak pressure value that may not be exceeded without distorting a bullet alloy of a given BHN, and describes grouping size differences that result if you do exceed it.

[Paul B.]

"The hardness of the bullet means nothing. You try driving the hardest cast bullet too fast(just how fast, of course, is not defined by anybody) you'll lead the barrel."

I only partially agree with you. A while back I loaded up some full power loads for a friend's .357 magnum and when I was done I realized I'd cast the the bullets from the wrong alloy. That melt was for use of 148 gr. wadcutter target loads for the .38 Spl. BHN level was 8, only slightly harder than pure lead. There wasn't time to drain the pot and start over so I told my friend what the deal was and if the gun leaded badly I'd do the chore of removing it. The next time I saw him I asked if I needed to delead his gun and he said there was no leading and that they were some of the most accurate loads he's ever shot in that particular gun. I fan up another batch and loaded 50 rounds to try in my ,357 Mag. He was right. No leading and I got some of the best groups ever from that gun His was a Ruger Blackhawk and mine an S&W 28. I never had a chance to slug his barrel and cylinder throats but my gun slugs out at .358" for the barrel and .3585" to .359" for the throats and I sized the bullets to .359". Average velocity from my gun was 1230 FPS + or - 10 FPS. Fresh cast those bullet run 8 BHN and over a period of time will age harden to about 10 BHN.
Paul B.

[pete2]

Folks, hardness does mean something. I've shot a lot of cast bullets and I found that bullets made of linotype material we a lot better than softer alloys. I shot them with max. loads in .357 and .44 mag with excellent results, both for accuracy and lack of lead buildup . The revolver must be good, throats in the cylinder must be right, bore and rifling must be good. I had a .45 Colt Blackhawk that would not work with anything but the throats in the cylinder were .455 and the bbl was .451. Gas checks were not necessary in the 44 or the 357.
This based on my experience. The bullet diameter, cylinder and bbl must all be right.

[Unclenick]

A century ago, Harry Pope said, "the base steers the bullet". Harold Vaughn did some good experiments to prove this by showing small base trueness errors affect group size a lot at 100 yards, while much larger nose deformation affected group size much less. Greater hardness means the peak pressure needed to distort the base of the bullet (the part it is critical to keep square for best accuracy) is higher. If you can work with higher peak pressure you can get to higher velocity. Ergo, harder cast bullets can be made to go faster without accuracy loss than softer ones can.

The velocity itself is meaningless. The same peak pressure that is safe from distorting a cast bullet in a 16" barrel will be safe from distorting it in a 32" barrel, but the latter will be traveling faster. It's the pressure you need to watch.

The flip side usually comes from CAS shooters who observe harder bullets can lead more than soft ones in some of their guns. This turns out to happen because the gun has a throat constriction or a slightly loose bore so the bullet has to be soft enough to be upset by the pressure at its base either to bump back up to groove diameter after passing through the constriction, which hard bullets won't do if it is bad enough, or to bump up to fill the oversize bore, which hard bullets won't do well, either. The worst possible combination is shooting them in a revolver with throats smaller than the groove diameter of the bore.

Another factor is the 0.001" over groove diameter that is standard for commercial cast bullets is not quite enough in a gun with even slightly imperfect alignment of the chamber and barrel. It is really common with hard bullets to find they shoot better sized about 0.0015-0.002" over groove diameter. The same applies to lever rifles. But any more than that and groups usually start to grow again because the gun is sizing them too much to do it with good symmetry.