Assistance with expediting initial load development..

[1stmar]

Looking to vet this out.. I just sent an action to Hart for rebarrelling and I'd like to minimize load development time. Since the chamber will be new, I will not have any fire formed cases yet so all cases initially will be new or full lengthed sized. My approach is the following:
- start with 24 cases, 12 new, 12 previously loaded (common head stamped, weight is the same, proper prep (cleaned, trimmed, polished, reamed, deburred..)
- load ea with the same bullet/powder mix
- seat bullets in 4 groups of 3 at varying distances from rifling (found distance recommendations on this forum)
- 2 sets of these loadings, 1 with previous loaded brass and 1 with new
- identify the groupings that show most promise
- use fire formed brass to determine proper sizing die adjustments
- move on to varying powder loads

Questions are:
I recognize that fl sizing likely will not produce the best groups, but will the groups with varying seating depths be indicative of performance when the cases are sized correctly ?

Is there something I should be requesting of Hart that will aide in load development or ensure the best results?

[RobertInIowa]

See if they can tell you the exact dimensions of your chamber.

The varying depth seating of the bullets will only truly tell you about the performance of the bullets under that specific configuration (full lenght resizing). If you want fireformed data you will need to use fireformed cases.

[sourdough44]

What is the chambering? Twist rate? What is the use, range, hunting? I would just do some case prep with new cases & prime them, (neck size, trim, champher, debur). When testing out the accuracy of a new gun I often use matchking bullets, even if later I plan to switch to a more appropriate hunting bullet.

I'd want to wait on the gun so I could measure the chamber for desired COL, the usual short distance off the lands. You could load now just a tad long & reseat later to a specific COL if you wanted to get going. That way you could take your time with several loadings.

It could eliminate some variables & potential problems by just going with new cases to start out with, at least for initial testing. I have one custom AR & I soon regulated it to it's own dedicated cases, nickle plated. That was after I had issues with cases that would feed in other's without problems.

[1stmar]

30-06, 10" twist, initial distance is 100yrds. I'm not looking to develop the loads in advance of the rifle, just trying to minimize the number of trips to the range. If I need to fire form the cases before I can accurately test bullet seating depth the that adds a trip and all I get out of it is fire formed cases. I was hoping to kill 2 birds, by varying the seating depths and fire forming the cases in 1 trip. Again, recognizing this won't provide the best performance, but was hoping it would have been indicative of what to expect when neck sizing. So if I determined that with fl sizing, the most accurate depth was 10thsands off, this would be the best performing depth when I neck sized fire formed cases. Sounds like I can't make that conclusion.

[243winxb]

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...pringfield.pdf COL in the 30-05 runs from 2.940" to 3.340" The chambers throat/leade will be cut to work with all bullet weights, 110 to 220 gr. Unless you tell the gunsmith differently. I would supply Hart with a dummy round of the bullet i would be using. Seat the bullet to a COL with the bullets base at the neck/shoulder junction. full diameter, not the boatail. Bullet ogive should be .020" off the rifling. Then when working up loads, full length resize new brass only. Try different burn rates of powder at the same COL. When you find the best powder, then fine tune the COL.

[hooligan1]

Your missing all the fun man,,, Loading manuals, coffee, brass prep, calculating working powders, and their weights, primers, sighting in the scope in the first place,( I use factory stuff for that),,"barrel break in", all the cleaning,,,find ocw and you then will find coal, and then you'll have your question answered.
the "leg work" is all the fun really, but none of us know what your new Hart barrels gonna like.

[1stmar]

Thanks hooligan1, I get coal, help me out on ocw? Unless you mean OCD, cuz I bet that will help produce the best ammo :-). (no offense meant to anyone). I enjoy reloading itself, Im not crazy about the hunt for the right recipe. If it were more science and less art I'd be ok with it. I'm hoping a good quality barrel will help take some of the second guessing work out.

[flashhole]

It may turn out the new barrel has a minimum chamber cut (tight) in which case a FL sized case is all you will ever load. That's how my 223 & 7mm RM bolt guns are and I don't have the option of neck sizing. .002" shoulder bump is accomplished with the FL die all the way in.

Powder variations first, COL second. That's my recommendation.

[old roper]

You didn't mention if Hart did any action work and I would assume that you did talk chamber/throat and bullets you wanted to use selecting a 1/10 twist barrel?

We all differ with barrels and how we build things as I used a Bartlein 1/11.25r twist barrel 26" long for one of my 30-06. It's custom throated all the action work done good chamber in a McMillan stock so I get a complete rifle from the gunsmith.

I load at the range been doing that the last 30yrs and it has it's advantages big one for me is I get to see instant result if something works or doesn't work. I break-in the barrel with a start load use new cases maybe 5 to 10 rd and those give me my fireformed cases. Since I haven't shot the rifle before this break-in allows to sight-in rifle and I may use more start loads.

there is nothing set in stone with me on seating depth as to how far off the lands is the optimum length in my rifles but I've always included neck tension doing that.

I can't say I haven't tried doing more than one things at a time working up loads most time it shows up at longer yardage so then it's back to starting over.

Well good luck

[1stmar]

I did talk to Karen and told her 150-180 gr, pretty standard, I did not talk specifics of chamber dimensions, I figured they know better then I do. They are squaring the action, I had Jarret lap the lugs and do a trigger job some time ago. I will be ordering a McMillan a5 this week.

I like the idea of loading at the range, I am looking at a lee hand press. I think that will dramatically reduce the load development time and actually help in other ways since environmental conditions will be the same. I am also going to get a lee collet neck die.

I love these forums, appreciate the input from everyone.

[hooligan1]

OCW is the acronym for "Optimal Charge Weight", you'll find it on the interet under Dan Newberry system of Handloading.

[old roper]

I use the arbor dies from Wilson and Jones

http://lewilson.com/necksizedie.html

http://lewilson.com/chambertypebulletseater.html

http://www.neiljones.com/html/micro_dies.html

I'll use a Redding body die for sizing.

One thing you will notice in a good chamber on new cases you can do each step on case prep and you be surprise what really matters and what doesn't.

My gunsmith is making set of Wilson neck/seater for my 270Wby and he did a set for my 35WhelenAI.

[1stmar]

I thought about an arbor press, already have a 550 and a rock chucker, just looking for something quick and easy for very occasional range use. Took a hiatus from shooting for 17 years, not sure I can shoot worth a darn anymore. :-)

[hooligan1]

Like riding a bike man!

[1stmar]

Interesting reading hooligan1 (http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspa...ons/4529817134)

Presumably you have found this pretty effective.

[hooligan1]

Well yes and no,, Newberry has a great way to find your "OCW", but I go by a little different way,,,, I like his computations, and have found ocw's for a few loads I like to use but I shoot 4 rnds of a certain powder weight, then try 4 more of a different weight, and so on. He has access to a range that affords him to fire his loads at five different targets, where I shoot, I get only one target stand in which the targets are double targets from MDC, and at one hundred yds,,,, so I only shoot two loads per firing session, which is 15 mins. and then a "cease fire" is called and you go downrange and secure target and change it for another set of loads.
But where I take stock in him is the fact that he's not necessarily looking for tight groups but tight groups near where he's zeroed, and he's ending up with a charge that will be good for a variety of circumstances like weather.

I also like using the .3 grn difference in load weights, for some reason it has worked well for me. I used to use the .5 grn work ups, but find .3 to be faster in producing OCW.

Read exactly what he says, and if your range allows mutiple target use then try his method to the letter,, it will help you come up with accurate loads man ,, no fooling!

After and only after I find my OCW do I start the process of AOL adjustments, which is like finding the load in the load.

[dacaur]

definitely fireform your cases before you start trying to work up a load.... Thats Why when I buy a new rifle, I will buy a bunch of factory plinking ammo, when you factor in the cost of brass, bullets, and powder, plus your time reloading, its a great source of fireformed brass That is, assuming its not some ridiculously expensive caliber...
Seating depth adds another variable to things, so I wouldn't play with it unless you cant find an accurate charge without it.

Personally, I dont buy into the dan newberry thing, seems like a lot of wasted time and bullets. I like to load 1 round each in .5gr increments, shoot them all at the same target, start low and they will walk up the target, until at some point a few will cluster together vertically. You take the range of powder there, and load 3-5 rounds in .3gr increments and shoot groups. Using that method I developed a 1moa hunting load for my uncles 50+ year old .300 savage in two range trips.... I guess if you have a range in your back yard and plenty of components thats one thing, but most of us dont... Why waste multiple range trips and set up 5 targets, when you can get the same result most times in 2 range trips and one target?

[flashhole]

You don't want to look for vertical stringing when working up a load. The idea of taking windage out of the equation is part of the Newberry method. 300 yards is a good distance but you can get good data at 200 yards too.

I line my target in 2" horizontal lines to make it easy to decipher the target and look for nodes that have low vertical stringing regardless of horizontal positioning. That's where you start refining the charge weight. It works and works well.

I will usually end up near max but not at max for best accuracy.

[hooligan1]

Dacur how can you come up with any straight data loading .5 increments in one shot? That don't even compute. how can you come up with proper dope on a given bullet, powder, primer, brass?

Hell any idiot can shoot 1 rnd groups to perfection..... am I missing something?

[dacaur]

Dacur how can you come up with any straight data loading .5 increments in one shot? That don't even compute. how can you come up with proper dope on a given bullet, powder, primer, brass?

Hell any idiot can shoot 1 rnd groups to perfection..... am I missing something?

Yes you are. The .5gr incriments are just to find the "sweet spot". For instance you might load one round each of 37.5, 38, 38.5, 39, 39.5, 40. 40.5, and 41gr. Then you take them out and shoot them all at one target, (taking note of which is which and giving plenty of time for cool-down). As you go up in powder the impacts will get higher on the target, untill you hit the "sweet spot" where 3 or so will be very close verticaly. Once you have done that, you simple start a little below the lowest and and little above the highest a load 3-5 round groups in .2-.3gr incriments to find the best......

[1stmar]

Newberry method of charges is essentially what I have done historically, what he does different is the round robin shooting procedure and the ocw selection.(steps 14,15,16) I typically selected the tightest group. I can see how it provides the most consistency, variations would be minimized, but not sure If I am convinced it results in the most accurate powder charge selection.

[hooligan1]

I take four rnds of each load,(.3 increments) and fire each group at one target, next group of rnds gets fresh target, seems easier to keep accurate track of any and all deviations and distractions,,, I use to use the .5 increments, but it seemed to me that the "sweet spot" ocw gets away without being tested,,, anyway I take the "noteworthy" groups and expound on them,
I think that only firing one rnd of a given load at a target can give you misleading data. 4 rnds give me a "hands down" tru test of that powder charge weight and it's characteristics.

[dacaur]

Im not actualy getting an accuracy data by firing one round of each load. I am simply finding the area where the sweet spot is....

When I developed my load for my .308, I started at the minimum and loaded 5 of each load in .3gr increments and shot them ALL (with cooldowns) It took a long time and I went through a LOT of bullets.... over 100 and a pound of varget just developing the load..... I have a great hunting load out of it, but, there has got to be a better (faster and cheaper) way....

Turns out, there is...

With my uncles .300 savage I used the method I described above, and got basicaly the same results using about 30 bullets....

The key is that every barrel has a "sweet spot" of 1.5-2 or so grains of powder where every shot will be at basicaly the same place vertically, and the most accurate load is nearly always located somewhere within that sweet spot. The single round each in .5gr increments is simply to find that sweet spot, at which point you switch to .3gr increments within it.... That way you only have to try out 5 - 7 different loads, rather than the 20+ I tried in my .308.....

[hooligan1]

Thanks for the explanation, although I have used my system for more than 25 years and different ways seem to complicate the clouds in my mind.... Although my daughters 116 FLH in .270 win will be next and we might try this Ladder system just to see what the hubbub is.
I have a rifle coming from California here in the near future, in 257 IMP, that will be devoted solely to using the Newberry method,,, minus setting up five targets, the most I can possibly set up will be four, on the same target stand.

[sc928porsche]

No 2 barrels are exactly the same. You already know what short cuts you can take for load development by your previous logs. They should get you in the ball park. Unfortunately, that only save about 1/2 the work.