Best way to learn self-defense?

MountainGun44 · September 25, 2000, 01:15 AM

I have read with interest the many posts regarding different martial-arts and their efficacy in actual "street-fights".

What set of skills (as opposed to specific animal poses and schools of discipline) are most important to learn in order to improve an individual's defensive capability? What is the best way to get this type of training?

Although I am fascinated by name-dropping and buzz-words, I would rather learn something like:

"Grappling and punching are basics that are important."

as opposed to:

"Monkey/Crane/Gopher...dojo...Shokogukikan....mental lotus...twenty years in Korea...ate lunch with Bruce Lee...I get in fights every week...etc."

I am not itching to get into a fight and never have been. I have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone. I will do anything to avoid getting into a "fight" with some idiot with nothing to live for. I am talking about back-to-the-wall, I am there with my wife and kids and can't run type of situations. The only time I will ever be in a fight, it will be a defensive situation and I will be fighting to live and protect my family. I will not be fighting fairly, because I will have been attacked. I will be fighting unarmed because I have no choice at the time. If I was armed in the same situation I would have drawn my weapon by the time it got to this point.

Any advice besides "join the Marines"?

fubsy · September 25, 2000, 06:04 AM

start with conditioning....fubsy.

tprT · September 25, 2000, 09:04 AM

Try Tony Blauer's information.IMO, one of the best around. www.tonyblauer.com
(I am in no way affiliated with this company)

LawDog · September 25, 2000, 10:05 AM

Okay. Punching and grappling skills are important. Even more important, though, is your mental attitude whilst learning defensive skills. If you go into a Tae Kwan Do class, learn the skills with a defensive point of view uppermost in your mind, you'll be head and shoulders above someone who takes the latest Moo Shu Pork class with a being cool point of view.

The best martial art to learn is one that incorporates kicking, punching and grappling. Unfortunately, most of the combined martial arts schools are located in (yack) California, but they seem to be branching out.

If you can't find a combined class, go to a kicking/punching school and learn for a while, then switch to a grappling school. Study grappling for a while, then switch back to the kicking/punching.

As always, study with self-defense uppermost in your mind.

LawDog

MountainGun44 · September 25, 2000, 10:37 AM

Thanks. Good info.

The Tony Blauer info looks like exactly what I would like to achieve. You guys are great.

Thanks tprT!

[This message has been edited by MountainGun44 (edited September 25, 2000).]

krept · September 25, 2000, 12:35 PM

Tony Blauer heads a forum called Q&A: Mental Edge off of the Underground forum at www.mixedmartialarts.com. (you may want to check the archives of posts before you post)

Tony is an awesome, down to earth guy with some pretty profound ideas about combat and mindset in general.

To be honest with you, recommending a particular martial art would be like recommending a brand of handgun and caliber choice. Your best bet is to check out some schools in your area, find out where you feel the most comfortable and start training. The more realistic the training and the more sparring you do, the more you will get out of each session.

As fubsy alluded to, one of the best submissions is conditioning. If you aren't properly conditioned, you are not going to get very far.

If you are interested in HTH weapons, there are people with far far more experience than I but I have heard good things from arts like Arnis/Kali or Dog Brothers style stickfighting. The good thing about learning how to fight with a stick is that almost anything from a rolled up newspaper, umbrella or some weird thing you might find in an alley could turn into at least a good distraction and at best a formidable weapon.

In any event, the people on www.mixedmartialarts.com have been probably the best resource I can find online in the last two years or so. If you have questions on anything from a particular technique (submission or strike) to where to find a good place to train in your area to which martial art would benefit you the most, they would probably be the best help as there is a good amount of people with a LOT of knowledge regarding martial arts.

Good luck with your studies!

tprT · September 25, 2000, 12:36 PM

No problem mountaingun. I think his info is excellent. I have some of his videos. One that I have "Take it to the streets" is o.k. but some of his earliest work. I have three others that I highly recomend "S.P.E.A.R. Vol. I & II"; "How to beat a grappler" (my favorite so far) and "The Four ranges". I also have 3 of his audio tapes. His techniques are to the point and he is very inspirational. As was said in another reply the mental attitude is a great part of defense.
You can also go to www.submissionfighting.com for a Blauer forum. Once there go to "Underground Forum" then to " Q&A: Mental Edge " It's all Blauer stuff.
Hope this helps.
tprT

tprT · September 25, 2000, 12:39 PM

Sorry krept....you beat me to the mental edge reply. I agree...great stuff in there.

tprT

------------------
If not you, then who?

krept · September 25, 2000, 12:39 PM

Wow, I guess they finally got around to linking submissionfighting.com to the mma.com site... it was down for the longest time.

LASur5r · September 25, 2000, 01:59 PM

MountainGun44,
When I talked to Bruce Lee after I had about 7 years of Kung-Fu and various Karate styles under my belt and I had taken many "animal" styles of kung-fu...and he had knocked me out or down at will in full contact sparring (yeah...full contact---his fist against my face.)
He said, "Maybe you better quit fighting like an animal and use the tools and techniques more useful to a man."

How can you argue with a man who can hit you at will no matter what technique or style you use against him?

Anyway, I went back and figured out the simplest stuff that worked for me and just practiced that stuff...just like dry firing over and over and over again.

In Hawaii, I learned to hit a guy with what we called a "false punch"...I think you guys in the mainland call it "cold c**k". Shrug, look like you're going to give up, give the guy a little misdirection, and hit him in the nose or chin with the hardest punch that you can muster...worked for us little guys against bigger opponents.

Some guys that I know who are ex-cons or really tough street fighters or both, many of them recommend soap in a sock. That's when you want to put the guy out fast.
I know a coach who came from the streets who used to use a combination lock and he'd impact your head with that little fight stopper and he'd taken on some really big dudes...and let me tell you...he stopped many fights with one hit...usually to the ear or temple.
Who said "street fighting " had to be fair? When your wife's or kids' lives are on the line, you fight to win...forget the other dude...you need to carry an "equalizer."

fubsy · September 25, 2000, 05:06 PM

Hey now....there was no alluding going on....I flat out said it......lol.....fubsy.

MTAA · September 25, 2000, 05:52 PM

This thread is guaranteed to be at least 40-50 posts with many, minor arguments.

Here's the deal, I don't have a family or anyone other than myself to protect, with that in mind, I have less to lose by engaging in physical combat. If you are concerned about protecting your family I wouldn't worry so much about Hand to Hand combat, I would focus on handgun training through a suitable course.

There are martial arts styles which incorporate handguns/knives/shovels ect., my favorite being Krav Maga, and that would give you much more of an edge than any strictly striking/grappling martial art. Remember, even if you are Bruce Lee's bigger meaner brother, supposing you win a fight against three or four guys, odds are Daddy is going home with a broken arm, a fish hooked eye, brain damage, blood loss, ect. You don't want to compromise when it's your kids and your wife. Carry a gun, stay in shape, and if at all possible (Where do you live ?) find a martial art course which focuses on survival at any and all costs.

P.S., One last thing, considering you are a father, I am assuming you are no spring chicken. Life isn't the Tough Man Competition, so if I were you I would shy away from stiking arts that emphasize force on force.

tprT · September 25, 2000, 06:25 PM

MTAA,
As a husband and father of three young girls, I still disagree that you have less to lose. Your life is valuable to you and many others I'm sure.
I do agree that self defense should include firearms training but not to the exclusion of hand defense training. A well rounded plan should include fitness, hand to hand training, firearms (combat not target) training, and don't forget probably the most important part - the mental aspect. All of the above is useless if you don't know when or are not willing to use it.

tprT

------------------
If not you, then who?

LASur5r · September 26, 2000, 09:26 AM

I think one of the philosphic sayings that was attributed to Bruce Lee was, "If you want to learn how to swim you have to get in the water and swim. You can't learn on dry land."

MountainGun44,
Your wife and children are well worth the effort (the blood, sweat, and tears). Spend the time and visit schools, YMCA programs, check out your gun ranges, ask the TFL folks, watch knife training classes...find what appeals to you and train,train, train...the same as what you do with your side arm.
Good luck

MTAA · September 26, 2000, 05:42 PM

Thanks TPRT, I value my life just as much as you or the next guy, I also know what it means to have the extended responsibility to young children and a wife. I'm sure you'll know what I mean when your daughters are teenagers and you might find putting the smackdown on a troublesome suitor quite handy

.

MountainGun44 · September 26, 2000, 06:28 PM

MTAA-

Well, I am 35. Does that make me old? Maybe I am getting senile, but I honestly believe I am better equipped to handle myself today than when I was 20. I am stronger, much smarter, and far less "afraid". I don't know if that makes sense, but it is just a feeling of being more in control of my body and my surroundings.

I completely agree with the idea that it makes no sense to try to become the Ultimate Fighting Champion in order to defend myself. I am doing everything I can to get a CCW (in CA), but that is not a sure thing.

Yes, your "Spring Chicken" comment bothered me. I am a young man, dang it!

How old is Jean-Claude Van Damme?

Spring Chicken.....Jeesh.

:-)

tprT · September 26, 2000, 07:49 PM

Mountain Gun I agree with you. I'm 34 and feel the best I ever have. Bigger and stronger (but definetly not faster!)than I was in my twenties. I feel great about everything in my life right now and that makes me more confident. I'm exactly where I want to be.
As far as firearms go, I am a state trooper and carry one almost everywhere I go (clothes permitting) off duty. But, I know that 1) the circumstances may not call for a firearm and will get you in trouble should you display it at the wrong time 2) Things happen so quickly you may need another tactic to give you time to access your firearm and 3) notice I said above ALMOST always carry one. If you do get your CCW you will see that there is no way that you can carry a firearm at all times (and you know how old Murphy works). So, like I said in an earlier post, your "bag of tricks" must be well rounded with hand to hand, weapons and mental training. You may be more confident and skillful in one area but don't get locked into it.
Good luck and good training!
T

------------------
If not you, then who?

MTAA · September 26, 2000, 09:57 PM

Geesh ! Sorry guys, I guess at 22 I'M starting to feel over the hill !

I spar regularly (Muay Thai), the day that I posted I had done two sessions both with guys in their fourties. One guy just couldn't handle blocking kicks with his shins/knees because of his arthritis. A force on force sport such as Muay Thai is ill suited for him, but he still enjoys himself anyway. Sparring partner #2 on the other hand, could run circles around me and had a considerably faster jab (Being Marvin Hagler's former sparring partner helps} he was 45, more than twice my age.

So anyways, sorry if I underestimated you, 34 and 35 is a good age to get involved with Martial Arts. You will appreciate it more and be more dedicated, at least thats what the other old guys tell me

.

P.S., let me know where you live in CA and I can put you in touch with a good gym.

September 25, 2000, 01:15 AM	#1
MountainGun44 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Posts: 343	I have read with interest the many posts regarding different martial-arts and their efficacy in actual "street-fights". What set of skills (as opposed to specific animal poses and schools of discipline) are most important to learn in order to improve an individual's defensive capability? What is the best way to get this type of training? Although I am fascinated by name-dropping and buzz-words, I would rather learn something like: "Grappling and punching are basics that are important." as opposed to: "Monkey/Crane/Gopher...dojo...Shokogukikan....mental lotus...twenty years in Korea...ate lunch with Bruce Lee...I get in fights every week...etc." I am not itching to get into a fight and never have been. I have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone. I will do anything to avoid getting into a "fight" with some idiot with nothing to live for. I am talking about back-to-the-wall, I am there with my wife and kids and can't run type of situations. The only time I will ever be in a fight, it will be a defensive situation and I will be fighting to live and protect my family. I will not be fighting fairly, because I will have been attacked. I will be fighting unarmed because I have no choice at the time. If I was armed in the same situation I would have drawn my weapon by the time it got to this point. Any advice besides "join the Marines"?

September 25, 2000, 06:04 AM	#2
fubsy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Posts: 1,363	start with conditioning....fubsy.

September 25, 2000, 09:04 AM	#3
tprT Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 36	Try Tony Blauer's information.IMO, one of the best around. www.tonyblauer.com (I am in no way affiliated with this company)

September 25, 2000, 10:05 AM	#4
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	Okay. Punching and grappling skills are important. Even more important, though, is your mental attitude whilst learning defensive skills. If you go into a Tae Kwan Do class, learn the skills with a defensive point of view uppermost in your mind, you'll be head and shoulders above someone who takes the latest Moo Shu Pork class with a being cool point of view. The best martial art to learn is one that incorporates kicking, punching and grappling. Unfortunately, most of the combined martial arts schools are located in (yack) California, but they seem to be branching out. If you can't find a combined class, go to a kicking/punching school and learn for a while, then switch to a grappling school. Study grappling for a while, then switch back to the kicking/punching. As always, study with self-defense uppermost in your mind. LawDog

September 25, 2000, 10:37 AM	#5
MountainGun44 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Posts: 343	Thanks. Good info. The Tony Blauer info looks like exactly what I would like to achieve. You guys are great. Thanks tprT! [This message has been edited by MountainGun44 (edited September 25, 2000).]

September 25, 2000, 12:35 PM	#6
krept Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,363	Tony Blauer heads a forum called Q&A: Mental Edge off of the Underground forum at www.mixedmartialarts.com. (you may want to check the archives of posts before you post) Tony is an awesome, down to earth guy with some pretty profound ideas about combat and mindset in general. To be honest with you, recommending a particular martial art would be like recommending a brand of handgun and caliber choice. Your best bet is to check out some schools in your area, find out where you feel the most comfortable and start training. The more realistic the training and the more sparring you do, the more you will get out of each session. As fubsy alluded to, one of the best submissions is conditioning. If you aren't properly conditioned, you are not going to get very far. If you are interested in HTH weapons, there are people with far far more experience than I but I have heard good things from arts like Arnis/Kali or Dog Brothers style stickfighting. The good thing about learning how to fight with a stick is that almost anything from a rolled up newspaper, umbrella or some weird thing you might find in an alley could turn into at least a good distraction and at best a formidable weapon. In any event, the people on www.mixedmartialarts.com have been probably the best resource I can find online in the last two years or so. If you have questions on anything from a particular technique (submission or strike) to where to find a good place to train in your area to which martial art would benefit you the most, they would probably be the best help as there is a good amount of people with a LOT of knowledge regarding martial arts. Good luck with your studies!

September 25, 2000, 12:36 PM	#7
tprT Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 36	No problem mountaingun. I think his info is excellent. I have some of his videos. One that I have "Take it to the streets" is o.k. but some of his earliest work. I have three others that I highly recomend "S.P.E.A.R. Vol. I & II"; "How to beat a grappler" (my favorite so far) and "The Four ranges". I also have 3 of his audio tapes. His techniques are to the point and he is very inspirational. As was said in another reply the mental attitude is a great part of defense. You can also go to www.submissionfighting.com for a Blauer forum. Once there go to "Underground Forum" then to " Q&A: Mental Edge " It's all Blauer stuff. Hope this helps. tprT

September 25, 2000, 12:39 PM	#8
tprT Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 36	Sorry krept....you beat me to the mental edge reply. I agree...great stuff in there. tprT ------------------ If not you, then who?

September 25, 2000, 01:59 PM	#10
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	MountainGun44, When I talked to Bruce Lee after I had about 7 years of Kung-Fu and various Karate styles under my belt and I had taken many "animal" styles of kung-fu...and he had knocked me out or down at will in full contact sparring (yeah...full contact---his fist against my face.) He said, "Maybe you better quit fighting like an animal and use the tools and techniques more useful to a man." How can you argue with a man who can hit you at will no matter what technique or style you use against him? Anyway, I went back and figured out the simplest stuff that worked for me and just practiced that stuff...just like dry firing over and over and over again. In Hawaii, I learned to hit a guy with what we called a "false punch"...I think you guys in the mainland call it "cold c**k". Shrug, look like you're going to give up, give the guy a little misdirection, and hit him in the nose or chin with the hardest punch that you can muster...worked for us little guys against bigger opponents. Some guys that I know who are ex-cons or really tough street fighters or both, many of them recommend soap in a sock. That's when you want to put the guy out fast. I know a coach who came from the streets who used to use a combination lock and he'd impact your head with that little fight stopper and he'd taken on some really big dudes...and let me tell you...he stopped many fights with one hit...usually to the ear or temple. Who said "street fighting " had to be fair? When your wife's or kids' lives are on the line, you fight to win...forget the other dude...you need to carry an "equalizer."

September 25, 2000, 05:06 PM	#11
fubsy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Posts: 1,363	Hey now....there was no alluding going on....I flat out said it......lol.....fubsy.

September 25, 2000, 05:52 PM	#12
MTAA Junior member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: CA Posts: 447	This thread is guaranteed to be at least 40-50 posts with many, minor arguments. Here's the deal, I don't have a family or anyone other than myself to protect, with that in mind, I have less to lose by engaging in physical combat. If you are concerned about protecting your family I wouldn't worry so much about Hand to Hand combat, I would focus on handgun training through a suitable course. There are martial arts styles which incorporate handguns/knives/shovels ect., my favorite being Krav Maga, and that would give you much more of an edge than any strictly striking/grappling martial art. Remember, even if you are Bruce Lee's bigger meaner brother, supposing you win a fight against three or four guys, odds are Daddy is going home with a broken arm, a fish hooked eye, brain damage, blood loss, ect. You don't want to compromise when it's your kids and your wife. Carry a gun, stay in shape, and if at all possible (Where do you live ?) find a martial art course which focuses on survival at any and all costs. P.S., One last thing, considering you are a father, I am assuming you are no spring chicken. Life isn't the Tough Man Competition, so if I were you I would shy away from stiking arts that emphasize force on force.

September 25, 2000, 06:25 PM	#13
tprT Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 36	MTAA, As a husband and father of three young girls, I still disagree that you have less to lose. Your life is valuable to you and many others I'm sure. I do agree that self defense should include firearms training but not to the exclusion of hand defense training. A well rounded plan should include fitness, hand to hand training, firearms (combat not target) training, and don't forget probably the most important part - the mental aspect. All of the above is useless if you don't know when or are not willing to use it. tprT ------------------ If not you, then who?

September 26, 2000, 09:26 AM	#14
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	I think one of the philosphic sayings that was attributed to Bruce Lee was, "If you want to learn how to swim you have to get in the water and swim. You can't learn on dry land." MountainGun44, Your wife and children are well worth the effort (the blood, sweat, and tears). Spend the time and visit schools, YMCA programs, check out your gun ranges, ask the TFL folks, watch knife training classes...find what appeals to you and train,train, train...the same as what you do with your side arm. Good luck

September 26, 2000, 05:42 PM	#15
MTAA Junior member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: CA Posts: 447	Thanks TPRT, I value my life just as much as you or the next guy, I also know what it means to have the extended responsibility to young children and a wife. I'm sure you'll know what I mean when your daughters are teenagers and you might find putting the smackdown on a troublesome suitor quite handy .

September 26, 2000, 06:28 PM	#16
MountainGun44 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Posts: 343	MTAA- Well, I am 35. Does that make me old? Maybe I am getting senile, but I honestly believe I am better equipped to handle myself today than when I was 20. I am stronger, much smarter, and far less "afraid". I don't know if that makes sense, but it is just a feeling of being more in control of my body and my surroundings. I completely agree with the idea that it makes no sense to try to become the Ultimate Fighting Champion in order to defend myself. I am doing everything I can to get a CCW (in CA), but that is not a sure thing. Yes, your "Spring Chicken" comment bothered me. I am a young man, dang it! How old is Jean-Claude Van Damme? Spring Chicken.....Jeesh. :-)

September 26, 2000, 07:49 PM	#17
tprT Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 36	Mountain Gun I agree with you. I'm 34 and feel the best I ever have. Bigger and stronger (but definetly not faster!)than I was in my twenties. I feel great about everything in my life right now and that makes me more confident. I'm exactly where I want to be. As far as firearms go, I am a state trooper and carry one almost everywhere I go (clothes permitting) off duty. But, I know that 1) the circumstances may not call for a firearm and will get you in trouble should you display it at the wrong time 2) Things happen so quickly you may need another tactic to give you time to access your firearm and 3) notice I said above ALMOST always carry one. If you do get your CCW you will see that there is no way that you can carry a firearm at all times (and you know how old Murphy works). So, like I said in an earlier post, your "bag of tricks" must be well rounded with hand to hand, weapons and mental training. You may be more confident and skillful in one area but don't get locked into it. Good luck and good training! T ------------------ If not you, then who?

September 26, 2000, 09:57 PM	#18
MTAA Junior member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: CA Posts: 447	Geesh ! Sorry guys, I guess at 22 I'M starting to feel over the hill ! I spar regularly (Muay Thai), the day that I posted I had done two sessions both with guys in their fourties. One guy just couldn't handle blocking kicks with his shins/knees because of his arthritis. A force on force sport such as Muay Thai is ill suited for him, but he still enjoys himself anyway. Sparring partner #2 on the other hand, could run circles around me and had a considerably faster jab (Being Marvin Hagler's former sparring partner helps} he was 45, more than twice my age. So anyways, sorry if I underestimated you, 34 and 35 is a good age to get involved with Martial Arts. You will appreciate it more and be more dedicated, at least thats what the other old guys tell me . P.S., let me know where you live in CA and I can put you in touch with a good gym.