.357 Magnum Heavy bullets & 2400 powder-

[Prince55]

What are some good stout loads with heavier bullets in the .357 and
Alliant 2400 powder for penetration ?

I have some Federal Vital Shock 180gr cast factory ammo. that was
shooting at exactly the same point as some loads of mine that were
loaded with the Hornady 180 xtp and 2400 powder. They were hitting
3 inches above point of aim. As I increased the loads the bullet impact
dropped to about 1/2 inch high and the load was getting a little warm
at 13.1 gr. of the 2400 with the Hornady 180 xtp and Remington cases
with cci 550 mag. primer.
Always work carefully up to top loads.
I need a chronograph to see about what I'm getting out of a 4 inch bbl.
Thanks

[SIGSHR]

I would like to know what your shooting goals are. I avoid maximum loads
as a matter of SOP, and unless you are using a fixed sight gun loads that
do not shoot to point of aim are a mere matter of sight adjustment. Also to
paraphrase Townsend Whelen only accurate loads are interesting.

[nate45]

13.1 gr. of the 2400 with the Hornady 180 xtp and Remington cases
with cci 550 mag. primer.

That looks like a pretty good one.

I use .38 special cases(OAL too long with .357cases) and the 173gr Keith Type with 13 grs of 2400 and Win Small Pistol primers.

With a jacketed bullet I use 13.9grs of H-110 and the 180gr XTP and 180gr Nosler Partition-HG, CCI 550's.

16.6grs H-110 with the 158gr XTP CCI 550 primer.

[Prince55]

Was interested in a couple of loads for carry in desolate areas for animals that
like to attack / stalk humans.
A couple of my revolvers have fixed sights and a couple don't.
I'm aware that as bullets of the same weight travel faster that they
strike lower.
Meant to post that the load mentioned was over top load in some manuals.

Thanks

[Prince55]

Nate 45,
Looks like you'd be getting some serious pressure signs with that load
in a .38 Special case.
Thanks for the info and answer.

[nate45]

Was interested in a couple of loads for carry in desolate areas for animals that
like to attack / stalk humans.

It is my personal opinion that for defense with the .357 Mag against dangerous animals of the two and four leg variety, the 180gr Nosler Partition-HG is the best bullet avaliable in terms of penetration and tissue destruction.

[Prince55]

Couldn't you use a .357 case trimmed shorter as well?

[nate45]

Looks like you'd be getting some serious pressure signs with that load
in a .38 Special case.

A cartridge case is just a gas seal the cylinder walls contain the pressure. The only reason the .357 case is longer is to keep .357 loads out of .38 sp guns. As far as I know .38 cases are just as strong as .357.

[carprivershooter]

I am a new owner of a 357mag and new to reloading. I have had it two weeks and have yet to fire it. My questions is there a difference in 38 special and 357 brass, and is there a diff in bullits for them. I do plan to reload both in the near future.






My pals
_________________________________________________________________
Springfield Armory, 9mm & 9mm subcompact, 40 cal. 45 acp and Tarus 357 model 66 6'' barrel. my carry either the sub compact or the 40.

[nate45]

As far as I know the only difference between the two cases is the length .357 is 1.29 in and the .38 Special is 1.155 in.

The problem you might run into is if you shoot alot of .38 Special in your .357 residue will build up in the cylinder chambers right in front of the case mouth making it hard to insert the longer .357 cases.

Make sure you scrub out your cylinder chambers well after each shooting session.

[scsov509]

I use .38 special cases(OAL too long with .357cases) and the 173gr Keith Type with 13 grs of 2400 and Win Large Pistol primers.

You really using Large Pistol Primer in a 38 special case, or is that a typo? I'm just curious because I've never seen anyone use LPP in a SPP case. How do you modify the case to accept the larger primer?

[nate45]

is that a typo

Yes it was thx for catching that for me. Of course I meant WSP- Winchester Small Pistol Primers.

I have never heard of Large pistol primers being used, but I have heard of small rifle primers being used with heavy .357 loads to keep the primer from blowing.

[scsov509]

Oh good, then I'm not just way behind the learning curve.

I've not really experimented with primers all that much beyond use of magnum primers in some .357 and .44 loads with slower burning powders. That's one of the things that I love about this board though is it that gives me great access to the experience of others who've been at this much longer than I.

[nate45]

scsov509 some people do use small rifle primers with very heavy loads in the .357. The shell is harder than a magnum small pistol and they don't want pieces of primer blowing back in their face.

The .454 Casull uses a small rifle primer for that very reason.

[freakshow10mm]

The .357 Mag case has a thicker web than the .38 Spl. The original loads for the .357 Mag generate 50K psi. Run that in a Special case and the case will blow.

[SL1]

Just as a point of interest: I have some rather old WRA head-stamped cases in .357 magnum that DO take large primers.

Original .357 magnum loads were advertised as producing 1515 fps for a 158 grain bullet from a 8-3/8" revolver barrel. I have no idea what the pressure was supposed to be in the 1930s, but it must have been quite high. By the time the loading manuals were publishing pressures, the loads were producing only 1350 fps for the same bullet in a 6" barrel with pressures of about 45,000 CUP. When electronic pressure measurements were substituted for copper crusher measurements, the pressure standard was dropped again to 35,000 psi and the 158 grain bullets now come out of a 6" barrel at only 1250 fps.

Maybe we need SAAMI to go back to the higher pressures with a "+P" standard for the .357 magnum. After all, it's performance has dropped about half-way back to the .38 Special level since it was first introduced. It would be nice to provide people who are not content with that situation with some useful data to work with. The old loading manuals can only get you so far, as the new bullets and powders replace the ones listed in them.

SL1

[onlybrowning]

I have a bunch of those .357 brass that accepts a large primer. I didn't discover it until I tried putting in a small primer . I don't think they are needed, as the small magnum primers do fine, even with way more H-110 than you are supposed to use.

[WESHOOT2]

The serious concern is throat erosion.

The 'original' load used swaged 158g bullets.

AA9 makes fine 357 heavy-bullet ammo; so does N110. And W296.

A steady diet of heavies will increase wear and decrease service life.

Current: (2) GP100s, one Redhawk.


one other thought: I expect a fast-launched 180g bullet of ANY construction or material will, as opposed to might, pass entirely through a human, regardless of point of entry and anticipated path, including straight down from the top of the head.....
I instead recommend the heaviest people-shooting bullet to weigh no more than 140g, except the swaged 158g LSWC-HP; I consider a more ideal civilian weight to be 125g.

[nate45]

I expect a fast-launched 180g bullet of ANY construction or material will, as opposed to might, pass entirely through a human, regardless of point of entry and anticipated path, including straight down from the top of the head.....

Why is that undesirable? Ventilation is good not bad.

Please before you cite the hoary old cunard that it might pass through the intended target and hit an innocent, plz provided at least one documented case of this happening.

In .357 the 180gr partition gold is the superior performing bullet when tested against all others.


WW's .357 magnum PG JHP penetrated 17 inches of ballistic gelatin when launched at 1,000 fps from a 4-inch Ruger GP 100.

.357 Mag Win 180 gr Partition Gold (S357P) from S&W 686 4”
BG: vel=1075, pen=18.1”, RD=.57”, RW=171.1gr
4 layer denim: vel=1090 f/s, pen=20+”, RD=0.53, RW=175.6gr
auto windshield: vel=1072, pen=20+”, RD=0.39, RW=178.0gr

The lighter weights can't match that level of performance.


Look how it opens like blades on a fan, wonderful performance and it does that to one degree or another even at lower velocities.

If people want to use the inferior 125gr loadings thats their choice, I'll go with the 180 partition myself.

[WESHOOT2]

I will allow you to provide the pretty pictures.
I will ask you to present one documented case of a human shot with that PG.
I will suggest you contact any major metro PD and ask how much lawsuit money they've paid out for pass-through misfeasance.

Ballistic gelatin is a great bullet comparator.

FWIW, the inferior 125g JHP earned its reputation from real life, not pictures on the 'net.

[nate45]

FWIW, the inferior 125g JHP earned its reputation from real life, not pictures on the 'net.

Back in the day when many law enforcement agencies used the .357 magnum, many people were shot with them.

The common wisdom of the time was that a high velocity 125gr was the way to go so many carried that round.

Those shootings took place at an average distance of 2yds mostly at night. Given the short distance, the noise of the .357 not to mention the perhaps 10ft or longer flame its no suprise alot of people went down.

The 125gr loads aren't bad they just don't have the same performance level of penetration as the 158 and the best the 180(specifically the nosler partition) do.

I will suggest you contact any major metro PD and ask how much lawsuit money they've paid out for pass-through misfeasance.

I would be willing to bet they paid out far more for rounds that completly missed and hit a bystander that for ones that completly perforated their target and hit one.

Ballistic gelatin is a great bullet comparator.

If you concede that then you have to admit no other loading in .357 performs this well.

.357 Mag Win 180 gr Partition Gold (S357P) from S&W 686 4”
BG: vel=1075, pen=18.1”, RD=.57”, RW=171.1gr
4 layer denim: vel=1090 f/s, pen=20+”, RD=0.53, RW=175.6gr
auto windshield: vel=1072, pen=20+”, RD=0.39, RW=178.0gr

As far as my use of the word inferior goes it dosen't mean its bad only lesser.

In this test on bare gelatin the 125gr .357 did good.

In this test the 240gr .44 magnum did better.

Surely you wouldn't argue that the .357 was superior to the .44.

I don't have any documented cases of a human being shot with the 180 I did however shoot a big doe in the neck with it a couple of years ago. She went straight down and not because she thought she was supposed to.

[freakshow10mm]

Lots of cases were cited by Mr. Ayoob on NYC's incidents.

[WESHOOT2]

I would argue that the 357 cartridge has been demonstratably more effective when shooting people.

I would bet that you are right about lawsuit money, but that doesn't make my comment any less right.

And there are ten thousand internet experts with ballistic testing; who to believe?
(I had one big-name refuse to buy test ammo; only wanted it for free. I had one "expert" who refused to provide me with the "I am legally permitted..." statement. So I am not one bit impressed with internet testing.)
I do have a document from Speer in here somewhere, though....


I offer no argument about certain bullets and their ability to penetrate, or to peel back.
In gelatin.
Or, for some, even in people.
But I might argue their efficacy.

Shooting people.

[freakshow10mm]

I had one big-name refuse to buy test ammo; only wanted it for free.

Cheapass. I bet I can guess who it is. At least kick in cost plus FET.

[nate45]

I would argue that the 357 cartridge has been demonstratably more effective when shooting people.

Based on what?

The whole notion that a 125gr JHP .357 @ 1400+ fps would be more effective(by any demonstrable test) than a 240gr JHP .44 @ 1350+ fps or even a 180gr .357 @ 1050+ fps for that matter is patently ridiculous.