Church--Carry or no carry?

[hd1.]

As stated in an above post by "logical", here in Michigan it is not legal to carry in a church or synagog without permission from the priest or rabbi. However, concealed means concealed, and I have not yet seen metal detectors at the church doors, nor have there been searches in the parking lot outside....................

On the other hand, if you're going in for a total immersion baptism......it wouldn't do the pistol any good to accompany you.

[Matt Wallis]

Wow, good discussion.

Though I don't think it is wrong to carry in church, I do not. I am a Pastor as well, and neither do I carry when I am officiating a service. For me, the difference lies between self-defense against generic crime/evil and persecution/martyrdom.

I believe that the Bible clearly teaches a right and obligation to stand up to evil and criminals. So I have no problem with self-defense or defense of others. But I also think Scripture draws a line between general lawlessness (for which the gov't and citizens are allowed to "wield the sword" according to Romans13) and persecution for the faith. The Gospel is never to be advanced by the use of force, but by God, who changes people's hearts. We are also told that we are blessed when persecuted.

So I figure if someone comes into church to do me harm, it is most likely because of my faith. And if it is because of my faith, then I count myself blessed.

Now, if on the other hand, the guy just wants to shake the church down for the offering money, then I got no problem with somebody blowing them away!

Matt

[Gunter]

IIRC the "turn the other cheek" verse denotes three situations:

a) someone strikes your cheek (turn the other)
b) someone sues for your coat (give him the shirt too)
c) someone forces you to walk a mile (go another)

ad a) striking the cheek is still regarded as an [B]insult[\B] delible only with blood in many cultures (African, Middle and Far East come to mind). => if someone insults you, do not resist, rather shame him by not resisting.

ad b) defense against a wrongful tort can be more expensive than paying off the other party (I am sure you know about the legal costs of nuisance suits brought agaist gun makers...). => be prudent and pay the lesser sum, shame the other by giving more than he would force from you

ad c) roman soldiers were entitled to offload their packs to non-roman-citizens who had to carry that load for one mile (how else do you think the romans were able to march so fast?), before flinging it down. The soldier had to find another subject to carry the load for another mile => shame him who treats you as a mule by walking a second mile

These situations are all undesirable, but not life threatening. They do not pertain to the defense of life or limb.
Go armed if you legally can.

[pax]

Matt,

You make a good distinction.

I am usually armed at church. This is because I carry everywhere I go. I don't specifically carry "TO" church; but I do carry, and go to church. I'm not armed against religious persecution, but I am armed -- and I suppose religious persecution could be the cause for someone shooting up a sanctuary. Or, as you say, he could just be after the money in the offering plate.

If someone tries to harm others while I have the means to defend those others, I will do my best to prevent it. If someone tries to harm me, I will do my best to defend my own life. This is true regardless of where I am when it happens, whether at church or elsewhere. If I have the means to prevent evil, and don't at least try to do so, then I believe the blood of the victims would be on my own hands as well as on those of the murderer.

My conscience is bound to protect myself and my family, so I carry the tools to do so. Other Christians might find themselves bound to accept whatever happens to them, and unable to carry a gun at all, or unable to carry a gun at church -- and be just as right in the eyes of God. Regardless of what beliefs others may have, I am bound to do what my conscience requires of me, and I will do it.

Frankly, I'm not sure how I'd tell the motives of the Bad Guys at the moment something happened. I'm not quite callous enough to say, 'shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out.' But I am callous enough to say that my conscience allows me to protect myself and others regardless of where I am at the time, and that God knows my heart.

And that's where I rest.

pax

Or why is my freedom judged by another man's conscience? -- the apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 10:29

[No4Mk1]

Well said Gunter. I too believe that this is one of the most oft mis-used quotes from scripture. There is a somewhat long, but very worthwhile disertation on the topic of Christianity and Pacifism written by Fr. Frog (also has some great pages on Scout Rifles and Firearm FAQ.) at http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/religion.htm

I would urge anyone who struggles with this idea to read it.

As for the question of the original post, because I live in Texas, and my church is also a school, and I have to walk throught the school portion to pick up my daughters when the service is over, and I do not wish to willfully break the law in a place of worship, I do not carry. (Note to those Texans out there, it is perfectly fine to carry in a church if they don't post a 30.06 and the church doesn't operate a school, but mine does....)

It is worth stating that I do carry everywhere else that I legally can, and avoid at almost all costs those places I can not.

[M1911]

When I go to church (a rare event), I do so armed. When I went to my niece's Bat Mitzvah and nephew's Bar Mitzvah, I was also carrying. I'm surprised we haven't started to get more attacks against temples in the US.

[Blackhawk]

When legally permissible, do it.

[ronin308]

Carry a gun in church!? Are you crazy!? I don't carry a gun in church....













I carry two! Bwahahaha

[another okie]

Legal in Okla., so I do carry there. The only real problem is that the huggers have taken over in recent years, so you have to learn to put your arms down low and guide their arms up above your IWB.

About a year ago I was on a church committee that met on Sunday afternoons. One day the door to the parish hall flew upon, a kid shouted "Satan's here" and ran away, leaving the door open. The next week the same thing happened, except that there were two of them. (Neither time did we get a look at them.) Recognizing escalating behavior, we moved the time of the meetings, but both times I had my Glock 26 IWB and it sure made me feel better.

[Kjay]

Wow! You guys must live in really rough parts of town.

[Mannlicher]

I dont go, so it is a moot point

[No4Mk1]

Kjay,

Live in a great neighborhood.... Don't have to live in a bad place for bad things to happen. Sooner you figure that out, longer you may live.

[weerwolf]

Do like me , dont go to church , problem solved.

[Long Path]

Even if you're not a member or a regular attendee of a church, you'll still find yourself in one from time to time, if you have any friends or family. Weddings, funerals, some community events, occasional baptisms and such that people get invited to will pop up.

I carry each and every time I go to church. I still attend the church where I was baptized, confirmed, and married in. I could NEVER let happen there what happened in Ft. Worth in 1999.

(Read that link; it's chilling.) One man with a gun could have ended so much suffering, when a madman terrorized 150 or more, who were forced to cower like sheep in their own sanctuary. This happens worldwide. It happened in Rawanda in a famous incident, too.

It used to be illegal to carry in TX, but that's thankfully changed, now. Please alwayscarry when you legally can.

[Ayteeone]

This has been a well reasoned discussion, I've enjoyed following it. Personally I believe that if I am entitled at all to armed defence, the location is irrelevant. God has provided guidelines and examples for us to learn from, it is up to us to make the decisions, however.

It is worth noting that this trend to be UNARMED is very recent in human history. Historically it has been slaves or heavily subjegated peoples that were forbidden arms. This is a generalization, of course... The Church has long been an armed body, for preservation of itself, and during some rather ugly periods in history which were probably more of a power struggle than anything else.

As an example I submit to you the VERY armed guards at the Vatican with modern "assault" rifles.

[LBC]

Yes, of course. The whole idea of CCW is you never know what's going to happen when. Why is going to church -- driving there, emerging from your vehicle, sitting in church, loading up the family, the drive home, and re-entering your house -- any different? I had a S&W 642 in my pocket when my daughter was baptized. I did lay off a little for my wedding, though -- only carried a Benchmade AFCK. My four best men all had Benchmades, too, courtesy of me!

[BudS]

I guess that, being the Audio Tech (and Security) for our church, I have the best defensive seat in the house: i can see the entire congregation and most of the hallway/reception area outside the main sanctuary.

We have had several burglaries in past years, just as folks were going to the altar for prayer or at tithe, when masses of folks go forward. All were apprehended. This is another reason for CCW, in case the alledged are confronted/escorted.

I've carried open & CCW for over 23 years, on & off; however, especially since 9/11/01, I've carried full-time, especially at church, since in an enemy's eyes, church is percieved as a "gun-free zone" and what better place for a mass "hit"?

Locally, a large Baptist church experienced two teenage boys who came in & started shooting the place up; needless to say, most, if not all, of the ushers are CCW.

Needless to say, some states forbid CCW in church; however, nothing's said about open-carry. Still some states say "where people assemble" like where I live. However, I feel as if I should adhere to God's principles & defend my family & friends, if need be, especially in these times.

[bela]

I can't recognize that _anyone_ can be annoyed if I carry _concealed_.
He / she does not know, so he/she does not mind..
It cannot concern anyone, as long as things are peaceful.
nd if otherwise may be some people will be glad...

[spenny]

do I carry in church?

Here's a pic of my wedding, there were a number of us who were kilt clad and armed.
that's my ceremonial dirk on my hip. The blade is about 15 inches long, and too dull to cut butter.

i wasn't going to post it before and get labeled a skirt-wearer, but now that TFL is going away, i thought that it should be added for posterity.

spenny
proud TFL alumnus

[spenny]

here's one where the preist, Fr. Jeff wants to show everyone my skene dhu, this is the knife that was hidden on your person, and now is traditionally worn sticking out of your sock.

as for carry in my regular church?
well, first it's in DC as in Washington DC so that's a no-no,
second, i grew up quaker, i'm probably the only quaker on TFL. but it's ok I come from a long line of bad quakers, i have quaker forebearers that fought in the revolution and in the civil war, and my dad was in the army.

so no, i dont carry in my regular church.

[CMBTMSTR]

Show me a place, a type of building, business, location that has never had a attack occur within and I'll consider not carrying there. Unfortunately attacks occur all too often in places we feel are benign. Perhaps that is why attacks occur there "A feeling or sense of security". I propose that there is a formula that states the more lawfully carried firearms are in a place it also decreases the numbers of attacks at that place. The reverse, I hold, is also true. How many attacks occur in police stations, gun stores or shooting ranges?.
Interesting side note. Here in Utah we in the gun rights groups are constantly fighting back the "common Sense" argument that legal CCW should be banned in churches.
There probably are not that many folks with CCW in this state who actually carry in church. So in actual efect on the majority of CCW it would have little impact, but in perception to evil doers it would be huge in that they would be assured that no one would be returning fire in defense of the bad guys attack inside.
My .02 worth,

[BigG]

At the Church of the Minute of Angle we always carry, in fact, it's a tenet of our faith!

[pax]

but it's ok I come from a long line of bad quakers, i have quaker forebearers that fought in the revolution and in the civil war, and my dad was in the army.

Spenny,

Was it one of your ancestors who heard an intruder in his home one night? It was some old Quaker gentleman, anyway, and he observed the intruder was stealing all the silver. So he pulled out his old rifle, aimed it, and spoke up: "Friend, I mean thee no harm, but thou standest where I am about to shoot."



pax

[Preacherman]

Unfortunately, under Louisiana law, CCW permit holders are explicitly forbidden to carry in church. This causes me heartburn, not just in a service, but if I have to go and check out / lock up the church late at night... I mean, who knows what I might find? I solved the problem by getting an appointment as a Special Deputy with the local sheriff's department. Now I can carry as I lock up, and be legal!

[spenny]

Pax,
I have no factual knowledge that it was one of my forebearers, but my friends from meeting have all decided that he *must* have been related

I have always heard it thusly:

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world, but thee is standing where my shotgun is pointed.



more quaker humor:
A Quaker was hauling a load of hay down the road to the barn. He had settled his hay wagon into a good set of ruts that would serve quitewell until he got to his barnyard gate.

The road ran between his property and the next farm, and as bad luck would have it when he rounded the bend, he saw that his Presbyterian neighbor was also driving a loaded hay wagon toward him, settled into the exact same set of convenient ruts.

Both men halted their horses, and sat under the hot July sun considering what to do. Someone was going to have to get down and help the horses pull a wagon of the ruts and go around the other.

Finally the Quaker stood up on the box and waved his hat and shouted,

"If thee chooses not to pull out, I will do for thee what I did for the other fellow back there..."

The Presbyterian considered. "I never heard a Quaker talk like that before," he mused. "Maybe I had better pull out."

So the man got down and with much sweating and swearing he helped his horses haul his wagon out of the ruts.

As he was pulling even with the Quaker, his curiosity overcame him.

"I've got to know," he said, "what was it you did to the other fellow?"

The Quaker looked puzzled and said, "Oh, of course, I pulled out for him!"