Select fire M16 lowers price these days?

[Kimio]

As the title says, out of curiosity, how much does an NFA registered full auto or burst fire lower go for these days?

Last I saw on gun broker, there was one going for nearly 15k (too rich for my blood)

What are some things people who are even in the market for an NFA firearm supposed to be wary of (other than scams and local/federal laws)?

How available are replacement parts for select fire M16's?

[skizzums]

you would be better to just get the RDIAS and build your own. your looking at about 12-15k. just Google RDIAS and go from there. knights armament sells them some times, gunbroker always has them. beans and rice for a couple years and trade in your car and get a 1998 Civic, don't get married and go full-auto.

[Kimio]

Looking around online, back in '13 the ATF was confiscating rifles that had these drop in auto sears.

I've never heard of these RDIAS this before. Interesting.

[Machineguntony]

$12,000 to $15,000 is a registered Lightening Link. If you see an RDIAS for 12-15k, it is almost with 99.99% certainty, a scam.

The last three RDIAS sold on gunbroker for $29,000, $30,000, and $31,000, respectively. I recently just bought a steel Broadhead armory RDIAS (which IMO is the best RDIAS). If you skip the broker, you can find a RDIAS for $26,000-$28,000 or so, but you're dealing with an unknown person, and run the risk of being scammed. I would not advise buying an NFA item directly from a person/individual until you are more experienced in the NFA realm.

The RDIAS can come in either steel bodied or aluminum bodied. The trip, which is not the registered part, is always steel regardless of the body. An aluminum bodied RDIAS is about $500-$1000 cheaper than a steel RDIAS. Some would say that there is no difference between a steel and aluminum RDIAS. I prefer steel, as I am pretty sure that while a kaboom may not destroy the aluminum RDIAS, the aluminum RDIAS is more likely subject to deformation or wearing down by being rubbed against the gun well.

I own most of the commonly available variants of the full auto M16/AR15, except a RLL. My favorite is the RDIAS, of which I own several. I absolutely love them, and can't say no to buying a reasonably priced RDIAS. The M16 is cool because you have something that says "M16", but the RDIAS is much more versatile. With the RDIAS, you can have a new host, new gun, and configure it however you want. Also, if you have a kaboom that destroys the gun, you can simply swap out hosts, as the RDIAS is nearly indestructible. There isn't much downside to an RDIAS, as it isn't even the most expensive option.

The only real downside to an RDIAS is that only one or two are available for sale, at any time, across the entire country. You will be competing with other buyers, to buy one at a reasonable price.

But to answer your question, as of this writing, here are my opinions as to current RETAIL prices, with the low price being a "deal", and the high price being "wishful thinking from a real seller". This is not an exhaustive list of all options. The average is in the middle:

M16A1 complete gun: $21,000-$26,000.

M16A1 lower only: $20,000-$25,000.

M16A2 "burst" variant marked: $28,000-$33,000.

M16A2 "auto" variant marked: $30,000-$35,000.

M16A2 carbine: $30,000-$35,000.

M16A2 marked with "Property of US Government": $35,000-$45,000, with $39,000 average. Note: be very careful buying these "Property of US Government" guns. Many were actually Stemples that were put together and not actually genuine "Property of US Government" guns. Buy them from a reputable dealer AND have the dealer take apart the gun and have them look over ALL the gun for any markings that may indicate the maker of the gun. For example, on a Stemple "Property of US Government" gun, you can usually find Stemples' markings on the area that is covered by the pistol grip. You pay $40,000 for a gun thinking it is a genuine "Property of US Government" gun, then 30 years later, your heirs find that it is a reweld when a knowledgeable buyer inspects it. DOAH!

There are other variants, but the above prices are for the commonly available.

AR15 Colt receiver or complete gun: $14,000-$20,000, average of $17,000. If you go with this option or the "off brand" option below, I would have the seller or you check the take down pins and ensure that they are standard pins, otherwise, you won't be able to use most uppers.

"Off brand" AR15, like EA or Bushmaster: $12,000-$18,000. These are known as shooter ARs, as you can shoot the hell out of them, and then just replace the upper. This is the true entry level full auto AR gun. You're just buying the lower, as the upper is worthless.

"Billet" registered Machine gun lower receiver: $500-1000 above the "off brand" above. You sometimes see these for sale at a $500-$1000 premium to the off brand AR15s. Not worth it, IMO, as no one, but the seller, really cares that it is a "billet".

Registered Lightening links: $10,000-$15,000. Many have been repaired, as the paddles on the RLL that acts as the trip will eventually break. I would never buy one of these.

RDIAS (Registered Drop in Auto Sear) Steel: $22,000-$32,000. Anything below $25,000 will sell the same day (however, if it is below $25,000, it is almost always a scam), $26,000-$28,000 will sell in a week or a month, and $28,000+ will take over a month to sell.

RDIAS that is symmetrical on both sides and steel, like a Broadhead Armory RDIAS, will be $30,000+ at retail, and will sell in like two days. You may spend your entire life looking for one of these.

RDIAS aluminum body: $500-$1000 less than steel. Some would argue that the aluminum RDIAS are really no different from the steel RDIAS. Functionally, that is true.

The DIAS that ATF is confiscating are the pre 1981 RDIAS, not the registered DIAS that are on the books, tax paid, with a form 4, and registered prior to 1986.

[skizzums]

well there you have it, from an actual buyer of these items. I had no idea they cost that much these days.

[Willie Lowman]

Expect the prices to go up. Especially just before the presidential election.

[Machineguntony]

Any M16 NIB, add $5,000 -$10,000 to the value of a used M16.

IMO, the only gun that is truly NIB is an original bagged M16. Even then, I wouldn't trust it. I know people who own commercial bagging/sealing machines.

And those NIB guns are a pain to maintain. You not only have to protect and maintain the gun, but you also have to protect and conserve the packaging, boxing, and the bag. If you lose, destroy, or degrade any of those things, you might have a hard time proving that it is truly NIB and unshot (which by itself, might be difficult because even NIB guns have been test shot at the factory and have fouling stains).

Finally, the NIB guns are no fun. You're going to buy a MG, and then just let it sit in the safe?!

[Machineguntony]

As to your last question, M16 parts are very common and very available. All full auto M16/AR15 guns need M16 parts to run full auto.

If you go the route of the RDIAS, you will need some combination of M16 parts, which are very easy to install. I don't know of any manufacturer of modern ARs that ship their guns with all internal M16 parts installed. Some will have a full auto bolt group, and that is the most expensive part of the kit.

A word of warning...

If you chose to buy a full auto M16 parts kit for your RDIAS, I would call the seller and tell them to ship you all the parts EXCEPT for the GI Auto sear. You are not allowed to have the GI auto sear as a stand alone left over part. I just tell the seller to keep the GI auto sear that usually comes with the parts.

Some people replace the GI auto sear in their M16s/Ar15s, as the GI auto sear is not a registered part. If that is the case, you need to surrender or destroy the old GI auto sear. You can't have both. Disclaimer: this is not legal advice. This is what was told to me by multiple people and my class 3 dealers, so I have no firsthand expertise on this issue. This limitation applies to AR GI auto sears, and not to M60 sears. Apparently, you can have as many M60 sears as you want (the reason for this being that you probably have more than one AR, and so having a semi auto AR plus an unregistered GI auto sear may be constructive possession of a machine gun, whereas with an M60, even if you have ten M60 sears, you probably don't have a semi auto M60 that can easily accept a sear, so there is no constructive possession).

For example, this site will sell the parts, and by default, if you buy the kit, they will ship you the GI auto sear as part of the kit:

http://www.ftfindustries.com/product/AR-M16BCGFC.html

[Skans]

I've seen them running upwards of $25,000. The days of $15K M16's is long over. I haven't heard of BATFE confiscating any pre-81 DIAS's. When did this start happening? (excluding fake pre-81's and illegally installed or constructive possession DIAS's.)

[Machineguntony]

Skans,

Here is an article/opinion piece on the issue:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/atf-c...rop-auto-sears

[243winxb]

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?...rmat=headlines Subguns

[Skans]

Interesting article. The only reference to BATF confiscation was the author's sentence: It appears that ATF might be endeavoring to expedite that process as I am aware of attempts by the agency to locate and confiscate pre-81 DIAS devices in the jurisdictions of both the 1st Circuit and the 3rd Circuit.

Not much information however is provided about any actual attempt by BATFE to locate and confiscate actual pre-81 DIAS's. I am sure that BATFE will go after anyone who is or has manufactured these in quantity post-81. I thought I recall reading where someone was blatantly cranking DIAS's out and BATFE did go after him (don't remember exact facts or names - just a vague memory).

[deblaw223]

Will the RDIAS work with any mil spec-ish AR-15 lower receiver?

[Machineguntony]

The short answer is that any AR15 platform will work with a Registered a Drop in Auto Sear (RDIAS).

The question is how much modification will you have to do to make the AR15 run with the RDIAS. To run the RDIAS, you need a low shelf AR15 (the shelf is the area on which the RDIAS sits). But even a high shelf gun can be milled and turned into a low shelf.

Technically, one can argue that if the rifle accepts a RDIAS, it is, by that virtue, not mil-spec. True military or law enforcement rifles that run full auto use a GI auto sear, not a DIAS, registered or not. But in the case of the RDIAS, we can take 'mil-spec' to mean any rifle that is ready to run by just dropping in the RDIAS, once you install M16 internals.

I also can not think of any modern AR15 rifle maker that ships their rifles with all M16 internals, which are required to run full auto. I have shopped extensively for hosts, as I own several RDIAS. A few rifles I saw had a mix of M16 parts, but no rifle had a full complement of M16 parts. The most important M16 part that I looked for was a full auto bolt group. That's the most expensive part, as the other parts are relatively cheap. Most semi auto AR15s come with semi auto (neutered) bolt groups.

Some manufacturers have a low shelf with the denial island that will readily accept the RDIAS, and those are the easiest to use rifles: just replace the semi parts with M16 parts, drop in the RDIAS, and you're ready to shoot full auto.

Here is a true mil spec full auto M16. Notice the GI auto sear and the lack of the denial island. The GI auto sear is held in place by a pin that is drilled into the receiver.



Here is a semi auto Colt AR15 M4 that initially had a sear block. I milled out the sear block and dropped in the RDIAS.



Here is the area that I milled out, in the Colt AR15 above. I milled out the sear block and the denial island. The milled out area is the silver, exposed metal part. If you're wondering why I milled out the entire area, it is because Colt has a bar that blocks installation of the RDIAS (even though Colt designs its gun not to be used with a sear, the gun came from the factory with a full auto bolt group). If your gun has a high shelf, you will have to do the same thing.



Here is a low shelf AR15 that only needed M16 parts, and then it would readily accept an RDIAS without any other modification. This is a DPMS. Notice the presence of the denial island that is not present in the M16. This gun was made for a RDIAS (even though this gun had a shelf and well that was ready to accept a drop in sear, it came with a neutered bolt).

[deblaw223]

Thanks, the pictures and explanation help a lot.

[243winxb]

Colt factory original M16A1 Carbine From here> http://www.photobucket.com/M16A1

[Machineguntony]

243,

Have you ever replaced the GI sear? I know they wear out after a while. I'm wondering when to change it out, if ever. The trips on the RDIAS wear out, so imagine the same would happen to the GI auto sear.

[243winxb]

No. It was all factory original wnen I sold it in 2011. Unknow how many rounds fired. A guess, 3000 reloads and 2 cases of PMC factory ammo. 1000 per case. The bolt face was pock marked from using the wrong primer. [IMG][/IMG] These emptys are used for foot stools in basement. [IMG][/IMG] Been shooting the remaining tips in a Savage bolt gun. Sold 1000 on Gunbroker , shot the rest of the 5000 box.

[Machineguntony]

On a similar topic (for the sake of discussion) a common topic of discussion/debate I hear is that it is not easy to turn a semi auto into a machine gun. Someone comes along and angrily dispels the myth of how easy it is to make a machine gun. See this blog, for example:

http://blog.robballen.com/Post/3239/...n-to-full-auto

Then comments come in agreeing about how difficult is it, in reality, to actually turn a semi auto into a full auto.

From my personal experience, having LEGALLY converted some of my semi autos into full autos, it is really dirt easy (I won't say more or about how to, beyond what is already discussed in this thread). Remember that the drop in sears are only $25,000 because of the '86 prohibition. The drop in sears are simple pieces of machined metal that cost about $50 to make. There is nothing inherently complex or intricate about them. There are people with machining tools who can make DIASs in a few hours, and prior to 1981, there was a guy machining the DIAS and selling them for $200 (until ATF confiscated them all, as we mentioned in posts above).

BTW, I like the guys' blog a lot. Very interesting reading.

[CowTowner]

The most important M16 part that I looked for was a full auto bolt group. That's the most expensive part, as the other parts are relatively cheap. Most semi auto AR15s come with semi auto (neutered) bolt groups.

They can be had for what I would consider a reasonable price, $170.00.
https://www.wmdguns.com/m16-ar-15-fu...oup-matte.html

Currently out of stock, though.

[Machineguntony]

True Cowtowner, the bolt is $170, but the entire M16 fire control parts total are only $260. So the bolt accounts for all but $90 of the cost.

In stock, here, my friend:

http://www.ftfindustries.com/product/AR-M16BCGFC.html

Note, to anyone reading, that these parts can only be legally installed if the installing person is a dealer with appropriate licensing or if he has the requisite registered sear. Full auto isn't worth 10 years in federal prison. Not to mention, people who violate gun laws make lawful gun owners look bad.