Help choosing 5.56 can for HD 11.5" carbine.

anaxagoras · March 28, 2015, 08:02 PM

So i posted a question over at arfcom and got some suggestions that have kind of helped me re-evaluate what i'm looking for and some of my choices.

I'm looking for a can for my 11.5" sbr. I currently have an aac 762-sdn-2 and now i'm looking for a dedicated 5.56 can, arguably i'd be fine with a 30 cal can if it meets my other needs. This can will stay on my HD carbine most of the time. So I want to keep the package short and light.

My main needs length (no more than 6" total added to the oal of the platform, preferably less), followed by suppression (want to minimize hearing damage and disorientation if used indoors with no ear pro) and then weight (weight is more of a nice to have, it's only going to be for HD not lugging around in the brush, but still not throwing off the balance of the weapon is important). While I would like something with a QD system, i think there is a weight and length penalty and it's not a need. Also i think there's a sound penalty to QD systems for their length, to accommodate the QD system a baffle stack or two is removed from the tube. Finally money is mostly irrelevant, buy once cry once.

I'm open to anything really. Anyone have any suggestions?

Right now i'm considering the in no specific order
gemtech trek-t (has a lot of potential, but i've heard mixed things about gemtech)
templar nemesis (don't know much about the product or company, but they make some bold claims and on paper it looks as good or better than the trek-t... but $$$)
aac mini4 (concerned it might be too loud, but works with my existing 51t mounts)
Saker K (the longest of the bunch if considering oal of rifle with supressor, but works with my existing 51t mounts)

rjrivero · March 28, 2015, 08:33 PM

Consider Allen Engineering:

I use an AEM2 from Allen Engineering. It's a reflex design, and though it's 6" long comes back over the barrel about 2" so it only adds about 4" to the OAL of the rifle.

It's reasonably quiet for the length, and all stainless construction is robust and durable.

Ron Allen is the man who made all of the Ops Inc suppressors back in the day.

I also have an AEM4, but honestly, I like the handling of the AEM2 better. It's a bit louder, but fits the "sweet spot" for my needs.

http://www.aesuppressors.com/suppressors/AEM2.html

Mobuck · March 30, 2015, 06:30 AM

Those expectations add up to big bucks(and possibly a short life of can dependent on use/abuse).
Just my opinion.

Willie Lowman · March 30, 2015, 09:19 AM

I use an AAC Mini4 on my SCAR. AAC advertises the Mini4 for use on SBRs but in my opinion it is a better can for 16" and longer barrels.

A friend has a 10.5" SBR with a AAC M4-2k. One day we swapped my Mini4 and his M4-2k to see how they sounded. I couldn't tell a difference in sound when shooting my SCAR with one suppressor or the other. The others at the range said the M4-2k was quieter to them. The Mini4 on the SBR was compact, balanced well, and was still pretty loud. The best way I could describe it was that it was 'less obnoxious.' There was a visible muzzle flash coming out of the Mini4 when it was on the SBR. Full ear pro was definitely needed.

Noveske SBR with Mini4

Mini4 on SCAR
I don't seem to have any pics of the M4-2k from that day.

Mini cans just don't work very well on SBRs. Yeah they are designed and marketed for SBRs. The mini cans work well on full length barrels (better balance and adequate suppression) and the full length cans work better on short barrels (need a big can to contain the burning powder/gasses)

anaxagoras · March 30, 2015, 09:48 AM

rjrivero: I've never heard of Allen Engineering before. I took a quick look they seem a little heavy but otherwise like a good choice. I'll look into them more, thank you.

Mobuck: As long as we're not going over ~$1500 I'm good. As far as can life, that's concerning. Why do you say that?

Willie Lowman: The more research I do on the mini4 the more i'm dissuaded from it. The M4-2k might not be a bad choice, i discounted it pretty early though for weight and length. It's possibly worth revisiting.

It would be so nice if i had a local suppressor dealer where I could A.) handle all of these. B.) test fire them.

**44 AMP** · March 30, 2015, 11:03 AM

I don't have anything technical to add to the discussion, sorry. I do wish to point you to the now closed thread in this subforum about NFA items and Home Defense.

A lot of people, some with a lot of experience, think that deliberately choosing an NFA weapon for defense is a poor idea.

Do what you think best, but please, consider ALL the possibilities.

T. O'Heir · March 30, 2015, 01:35 PM

Choosing a 5.56 for HD is a bad idea, can or no can. Far too much penetration. A .223 will go right through heavy outer doors on houses. YOU are responsible for where every shot you take ends up.
Like 44 AMP says, do what you think best, but please, consider ALL the possibilities.

Mobuck · March 30, 2015, 07:18 PM

"Mobuck: As long as we're not going over ~$1500 I'm good. As far as can life, that's concerning. Why do you say that?"
I'm basing that comment on the fact that short barrels force more, hotter gas into the baffles and I would expect erosion to be more severe. In addition(as others have mentioned) small "cans" simply don't have the volume to handle that gas as effectively as larger units. If you like to shoot fast, that's even worse.

Mobuck · March 30, 2015, 07:26 PM

"Choosing a 5.56 for HD is a bad idea, can or no can. Far too much penetration. A .223 will go right through heavy outer doors on houses. YOU are responsible for where every shot you take ends up"

I'm not at all sure you can make that blanket statement. From my house a .223 could barely reach another house and then only if fired outside and perfectly aligned by some other means than visual(cause you can't SEE another house from mine and if you could see that house it would be a heck of a long shot for a .223).

Machineguntony · March 30, 2015, 08:15 PM

That's a nice set up, Willie. What optic system is on that rifle?

Willie Lowman · March 30, 2015, 11:18 PM

Tony,

On the AR SBR is an old AimPoint Comp M2 (4 MOA dot) with a AimPoint 3x magnifier on a flip to the side mount. It works great out to about 200 yards.

On the SCAR is a AimPoint PRO (2 MOA dot)

Theohazard · March 31, 2015, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Choosing a 5.56 for HD is a bad idea, can or no can. Far too much penetration. A .223 will go right through heavy outer doors on houses. YOU are responsible for where every shot you take ends up.

This myth really needs to die. T. O'Heir, you have it backwards: If you're worried about over-penetration, a .223 rifle is your best choice for a defensive firearm, hands down.

This has been discussed here many times before: A self-defense .223 load will penetrate through walls a LOT less than any defensive handgun or shotgun load. Handgun bullets and buckshot just don't have enough velocity to fragment in walls, whereas .223 hollow- and soft-points usually start fragmenting immediately. In most tests I've seen (and the ones I've done myself), buckshot and handgun JHPs will zip through many interior walls, whereas the .223 round will make it to the second wall in pieces and rarely penetrate through the third. Here's the results of one test:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

And here's an article about a series of FBI tests:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?opt...technical-info

At this point, I feel this info needs to be in a sticky. At least once a week there's a thread where someone mentions using a .223 for home defense, and then someone comes on and repeats the same myth that a .223 will over-penetrate. Often it comes up several times in one thread and it needs to be debunked each time, over and over again. It's really getting tiring.

Theohazard · March 31, 2015, 01:17 AM

To the OP: Most 5.56 cans that are designed for SBR use are quick-attach and have baffles made of inconel or stellite. QA cans won't back off the threads during rapid fire, and a material like inconel or stellite is exceptionally durable and will hold up much better to the extreme heat and pressure of a 5.56 SBR, but it also makes the can heavier.

It sounds like the ideal can you're describing is a lightweight titanium direct-thread can. Titanium won't last anywhere near as long as a stellite or inconel can, but it will be a lot lighter. And you'll have to make sure the can doesn't come loose when firing.

If this is a true HD-only can and it won't be shot all that much, then lightweight and direct-thread makes sense. But if you want a durable can that won't come loose no matter how hard you run it, then you want a heavy-duty quick-attach can.

**44 AMP** · March 31, 2015, 10:29 AM

Quote:

At least once a week there's a thread where someone mentions using a .223 for home defense, and then someone comes on and repeats the same myth that a .223 will over-penetrate. Often it comes up several times in one thread and it needs to be debunked each time, over and over again. It's really getting tiring.

Its NOT a myth. It's just confusion. Because the .223 does both, overpenetrates, and penetrates less than common handgun bullets, DEPENDING on what bullet you are shooting in the .223.

.233s with soft point/hp varmint bullets are less penetrating. .223 FMJ is not.

The linked article from Mr Taubert has some interesting information. It also has some grammatical errors, uses uncommon terms (single fire rifle), the link does not include the table of results, and as far as I can see does not address penetration of the FMJ bullets other then their wounding characteristics.

Also, it ends with this...

Quote:

ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

This disclaimer, to me, says that they are saying that their results are, essentially, worthless. They got what they got, but it may not apply to anything else...

Saying the .223 is good/bad at overpenetrating, in a home defense situation without stating the bullet used is useless information, and can lead to the underinformed choosing the wrong thing.

Someone reading how the .223 is better at not penetrating walls than pistol bullets, and then loading their "home defense" AR with GI FMJ (because they read ".223", and not ".223 with JHP/JSP bullets") is not going to have the results they are expecting.

Theohazard · March 31, 2015, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Its NOT a myth. It's just confusion. Because the .223 does both, overpenetrates, and penetrates less than common handgun bullets, DEPENDING on what bullet you are shooting in the .223.

The myth is that you shouldn't use a .223 for home defense because it will over-penetrate. This is a complete myth as long as proper defensive ammo is used.

My post made it clear that I was talking about .223 defensive hollow- and soft-point ammo; if you use FMJ or M855 of course you'll have different results.

And -- for everyone reading this -- I should emphasize that 44 AMP and I aren't saying a .223 JHP or SP will be safe after passing through a wall or two. Also, we're aren't saying that it won't penetrate multiple walls. What we're saying is that it will usually pass through fewer walls than a handgun or buckshot load.

anaxagoras · March 31, 2015, 07:43 PM

With where i live unless i managed to zip a bullet perfectly through a dense section of tree in any direction, or shoot in the sky at a 45 degree angle i'd have a better chance of being struck by lightening than hitting another house. So i'm not worried about over penetration... and as Theohazard said i'd also be much more worried with not only overpenetration with a non frangible round like a 45 or buckshot than a high speed defensive 5.56 round. I'm not using FMJs in my HD weapon, what's the point? it'll zip right through the target. Not to mention under stress I'm confident i'd be more likely to hit my mark with my sbr + eotech than with my handgun, which again makes me more confident with the AR, than zipping handgun rounds through drywall.

Anyways, While this will be a HD gun, I'm going to practice with it somewhat regularly. SO that I'm familiar with the combo, the weight, the handling, etc. So on paper a Direct Thread Titanium can would be best, it'd get trashed if I'm practicing hard with it at the local shoot house.

March 28, 2015, 08:02 PM	#1
anaxagoras Junior Member Join Date: March 21, 2010 Posts: 5	Help choosing 5.56 can for HD 11.5" carbine. So i posted a question over at arfcom and got some suggestions that have kind of helped me re-evaluate what i'm looking for and some of my choices. I'm looking for a can for my 11.5" sbr. I currently have an aac 762-sdn-2 and now i'm looking for a dedicated 5.56 can, arguably i'd be fine with a 30 cal can if it meets my other needs. This can will stay on my HD carbine most of the time. So I want to keep the package short and light. My main needs length (no more than 6" total added to the oal of the platform, preferably less), followed by suppression (want to minimize hearing damage and disorientation if used indoors with no ear pro) and then weight (weight is more of a nice to have, it's only going to be for HD not lugging around in the brush, but still not throwing off the balance of the weapon is important). While I would like something with a QD system, i think there is a weight and length penalty and it's not a need. Also i think there's a sound penalty to QD systems for their length, to accommodate the QD system a baffle stack or two is removed from the tube. Finally money is mostly irrelevant, buy once cry once. I'm open to anything really. Anyone have any suggestions? Right now i'm considering the in no specific order gemtech trek-t (has a lot of potential, but i've heard mixed things about gemtech) templar nemesis (don't know much about the product or company, but they make some bold claims and on paper it looks as good or better than the trek-t... but $$$) aac mini4 (concerned it might be too loud, but works with my existing 51t mounts) Saker K (the longest of the bunch if considering oal of rifle with supressor, but works with my existing 51t mounts)

March 30, 2015, 09:19 AM	#4
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	I use an AAC Mini4 on my SCAR. AAC advertises the Mini4 for use on SBRs but in my opinion it is a better can for 16" and longer barrels. A friend has a 10.5" SBR with a AAC M4-2k. One day we swapped my Mini4 and his M4-2k to see how they sounded. I couldn't tell a difference in sound when shooting my SCAR with one suppressor or the other. The others at the range said the M4-2k was quieter to them. The Mini4 on the SBR was compact, balanced well, and was still pretty loud. The best way I could describe it was that it was 'less obnoxious.' There was a visible muzzle flash coming out of the Mini4 when it was on the SBR. Full ear pro was definitely needed. Noveske SBR with Mini4 Mini4 on SCAR I don't seem to have any pics of the M4-2k from that day. Mini cans just don't work very well on SBRs. Yeah they are designed and marketed for SBRs. The mini cans work well on full length barrels (better balance and adequate suppression) and the full length cans work better on short barrels (need a big can to contain the burning powder/gasses) __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens Last edited by Willie Lowman; March 30, 2015 at 11:22 PM.

March 30, 2015, 11:03 AM	#6
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	I don't have anything technical to add to the discussion, sorry. I do wish to point you to the now closed thread in this subforum about NFA items and Home Defense. A lot of people, some with a lot of experience, think that deliberately choosing an NFA weapon for defense is a poor idea. Do what you think best, but please, consider ALL the possibilities. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 30, 2015, 01:35 PM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Choosing a 5.56 for HD is a bad idea, can or no can. Far too much penetration. A .223 will go right through heavy outer doors on houses. YOU are responsible for where every shot you take ends up. Like 44 AMP says, do what you think best, but please, consider ALL the possibilities. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

March 30, 2015, 08:15 PM	#10
Machineguntony Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2013 Posts: 1,277	That's a nice set up, Willie. What optic system is on that rifle? __________________ Sent from Motorola DynaTac 8000x

March 28, 2015, 08:33 PM	#2
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	Consider Allen Engineering: I use an AEM2 from Allen Engineering. It's a reflex design, and though it's 6" long comes back over the barrel about 2" so it only adds about 4" to the OAL of the rifle. It's reasonably quiet for the length, and all stainless construction is robust and durable. Ron Allen is the man who made all of the Ops Inc suppressors back in the day. I also have an AEM4, but honestly, I like the handling of the AEM2 better. It's a bit louder, but fits the "sweet spot" for my needs. http://www.aesuppressors.com/suppressors/AEM2.html

March 30, 2015, 06:30 AM	#3
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Those expectations add up to big bucks(and possibly a short life of can dependent on use/abuse). Just my opinion.

March 30, 2015, 09:48 AM	#5
anaxagoras Junior Member Join Date: March 21, 2010 Posts: 5	rjrivero: I've never heard of Allen Engineering before. I took a quick look they seem a little heavy but otherwise like a good choice. I'll look into them more, thank you. Mobuck: As long as we're not going over ~$1500 I'm good. As far as can life, that's concerning. Why do you say that? Willie Lowman: The more research I do on the mini4 the more i'm dissuaded from it. The M4-2k might not be a bad choice, i discounted it pretty early though for weight and length. It's possibly worth revisiting. It would be so nice if i had a local suppressor dealer where I could A.) handle all of these. B.) test fire them.

March 30, 2015, 07:18 PM	#8
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Mobuck: As long as we're not going over ~$1500 I'm good. As far as can life, that's concerning. Why do you say that?" I'm basing that comment on the fact that short barrels force more, hotter gas into the baffles and I would expect erosion to be more severe. In addition(as others have mentioned) small "cans" simply don't have the volume to handle that gas as effectively as larger units. If you like to shoot fast, that's even worse.

March 30, 2015, 07:26 PM	#9
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Choosing a 5.56 for HD is a bad idea, can or no can. Far too much penetration. A .223 will go right through heavy outer doors on houses. YOU are responsible for where every shot you take ends up" I'm not at all sure you can make that blanket statement. From my house a .223 could barely reach another house and then only if fired outside and perfectly aligned by some other means than visual(cause you can't SEE another house from mine and if you could see that house it would be a heck of a long shot for a .223).

March 30, 2015, 11:18 PM	#11
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Tony, On the AR SBR is an old AimPoint Comp M2 (4 MOA dot) with a AimPoint 3x magnifier on a flip to the side mount. It works great out to about 200 yards. On the SCAR is a AimPoint PRO (2 MOA dot) __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

March 31, 2015, 01:17 AM	#13
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	To the OP: Most 5.56 cans that are designed for SBR use are quick-attach and have baffles made of inconel or stellite. QA cans won't back off the threads during rapid fire, and a material like inconel or stellite is exceptionally durable and will hold up much better to the extreme heat and pressure of a 5.56 SBR, but it also makes the can heavier. It sounds like the ideal can you're describing is a lightweight titanium direct-thread can. Titanium won't last anywhere near as long as a stellite or inconel can, but it will be a lot lighter. And you'll have to make sure the can doesn't come loose when firing. If this is a true HD-only can and it won't be shot all that much, then lightweight and direct-thread makes sense. But if you want a durable can that won't come loose no matter how hard you run it, then you want a heavy-duty quick-attach can. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

March 31, 2015, 07:43 PM	#16
anaxagoras Junior Member Join Date: March 21, 2010 Posts: 5	With where i live unless i managed to zip a bullet perfectly through a dense section of tree in any direction, or shoot in the sky at a 45 degree angle i'd have a better chance of being struck by lightening than hitting another house. So i'm not worried about over penetration... and as Theohazard said i'd also be much more worried with not only overpenetration with a non frangible round like a 45 or buckshot than a high speed defensive 5.56 round. I'm not using FMJs in my HD weapon, what's the point? it'll zip right through the target. Not to mention under stress I'm confident i'd be more likely to hit my mark with my sbr + eotech than with my handgun, which again makes me more confident with the AR, than zipping handgun rounds through drywall. Anyways, While this will be a HD gun, I'm going to practice with it somewhat regularly. SO that I'm familiar with the combo, the weight, the handling, etc. So on paper a Direct Thread Titanium can would be best, it'd get trashed if I'm practicing hard with it at the local shoot house.