Trigger Advice for New Guy?

[aadosx]

Hi all,

This is my first post here, so allow me to introduce myself. The name's John and I am getting ready to purchase and own my first firearm.

I have decided that a pistol will be my first, and I personally dig the semi-automatic type. However, I am a little caught up in deciding what kind of trigger mechanism I want. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Let me tell you what I (sort-of) know already and how I plan to use the firearm.

I am looking for something for both defense and recreation. I know that I will eventually own more than one firearm, and surely more than one handgun, but I would still like something that I can use all-around for my first. So this will be a home defense weapon, a car defense weapon, and a target shooting weapon. I do plan to carry it sometimes, but honestly I believe that it will rarely be on my side. Of course, this may change once I own it, but that sounds like a good time for a new gun, if that arises. =) So, to reiterate, this will really only be on my person when moving in between my home and car, plus the semi-rare occasion that I am in a "sketchy" area of town, situation, etc. Therefore I am looking at "compact" sized pistols. I want something big enough to enjoy shooting, have some power, etc.. but also small enough to conceal if I really want to. I am a tall/skinny guy at 6'2" 175.

I've been looking at different handguns for some time now, taking trips to the gun shop and going to the range with my buddies. I've fallen in love with SIGs, and honestly, am all but pulling the trigger on one. However, when I started thinking about the situations I will be in and trigger mechanisms, I cannot quite decide what I want. The particular SIG models I am looking at, in order of preference, are the P228, P220, M11-A1, and P229. I like the slimness of the P220, considering it's a single stack. But I really think I want a 9mm considering this is an "all-use" gun. Anyway, these are obviously all SA/DA firearms. I read some of the stickies and see that at least one poster here loathes the SA/DA type, which I can kind-of understand, haha.. but to each his own I guess. Still, to my internal debate (finally)...

In my personal opinion, I believe that it would be silly for me to not have the gun loaded and chambered at all times. I feel that it would take far too long for me to chamber the gun in a life or death situation, and don't trust myself to function that well/quickly in such situation. Therefore, I assume that it will always be chambered. That being said, for some reason (maybe it's just because this is my first firearm and, quite frankly, I respect and even fear them to some extent) having a gun by my side that will fire simply from pulling the trigger is a little unsettling to me. Is this ridiculous? Maybe I am just uneasy at the idea. Maybe I even fear that I will accidentally "snag" the trigger somehow when holstering the weapon or placing it somewhere in my car. When I consider situations I will be in, I think I would be competent enough to disengage a safety, or even cock a hammer. Because I will mostly be using this from in the home or in my car, I feel that I will have at least enough time for this. Because of this, I am also looking into SA handguns, primarily the 1911. I honestly haven't seen many other SA automatics, so suggestions there would also be appreciated.

Anyway, what is your opinion? Should I not be so worried about accidentally firing a DA/SA handgun that has been chambered and de-cocked? If I'm THAT worried, should I just carry un-chambered and practice chambering? Or is a SA "locked and loaded" the only way to go? Again, this is all coming from a zero experience user, so I appreciate any advice or feedback you guys have for me.

Oh, and one more thing. On a SA handgun, like the 1911 in particular, is there a safe way to de-cock the hammer once chambered? Or is this a feature only available on guns such as the SIGs?

Thanks a lot in advance! And please go easy on the noob, haha!

-John

[TailGator]

SA, DA/SA, and DA/striker each have their advantages and fans.

All of those can be safe to carry if (1) the handler is well versed in firearm safety in general and in the use of their particular handgun in particular, and (2) it is carried in a high quality holster, well maintained, that covers the trigger. In the absence of those factors, no handgun is safe.

Everything about handguns is a trade-off. Weight is good when it is providing inertia to absorb recoil, bad when it rides around on your hip all day. Increased capacity is good when you are up against multiple BGs or your hit rate is low, bad if you can't get your hand around the grip. A thumb safety makes you safer if it prevents a negligent discharge from inattentive gun handling, but if you forget it or miss it in an emergency and your gun goes click when you needed a bang, how safe is the safety?

All of the choices are on the market because they are all legitimate options. You have to decide what is right for you, and then train and practice extensively enough that it is natural to you and you are confident in your abilities with your pistol.

[TunnelRat]

having a gun by my side that will fire simply from pulling the trigger is a little unsettling to me. Is this ridiculous?

No. But it's something you get over. It's a mental block. I was nervous when I first owned a handgun. But the fact is the gun just isn't going to pull its own trigger. You're talking about a DA/SA pistol. The first trigger pull is 10 lbs and rather long. What is going to set that off "accidentally"? If the gun drops to the ground, the firing pin block will keep it from being discharged. As for snagging in a holster, what you're describing is either a cheap/poorly made holster or one in a serious case of disrepair. A well made holster, made for your particular gun model, is designed to prevent this from happening. Look at some kydex options if you're really concerned as they prevent even the possibility of leather folding over.

Anyway, what is your opinion? Should I not be so worried about accidentally firing a DA/SA handgun that has been chambered and de-cocked? If I'm THAT worried, should I just carry un-chambered and practice chambering? Or is a SA "locked and loaded" the only way to go?

No. No X 9000. The idea of chambering in a defensive situation is laughable to me. I don't care that some people do it. In my opinion they obviously don't have enough confidence in themselves and their weapons that they shouldn't be carrying in the first place. This may have been needed in the days before passive safeties, but with a well designed holster and good discipline you'll be fine. If you want to go SA cocked and locked you're welcome to, but it is far from the only safe option.

On a SA handgun, like the 1911 in particular, is there a safe way to de-cock the hammer once chambered?

Most folks just thumb down the hammer if they do that, but there's no reason to in the first place. If a round is chambered the safety should be on. That is the way the pistol was designed. Trying to make something "safer" by going around the original design is a recipe for disaster.

[StainlessSteel215]

Whats up bud, great first post!
I have nothing else to add to what the 2 guys before me have posted....they pretty much hit all the key factors. As for being hesitant about the trigger type in terms of carry, I posted a VERY similar thread today and it got amazing responses. I'm a guy who's been shooting handguns for about 6 years and ONLY in the last 2-3 years got serious about my carry system...and I STILL have hesitations about carrying a round chambered. Check it out

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503956

[StainlessSteel215]

Honestly, to give you the best of both worlds...I would consider a striker fired pistol such as the Ruger SR9 because it does have an external thumb safety as well as the trigger safety...so in effect you could carry locked and loaded like a 1911 without all the size and weight of a 1911.

[Tinner666]

Not a lot to add, but thought I'd comment on this; "If I'm THAT worried, should I just carry un-chambered and practice chambering?"

No again! That's for the movies. In real life, the situation has already been 'decided' by time that round has been chambered.

As for myself, I've been using SA auto firearms 'Cocked and Locked'. 1911, Colt 380, and all my S&W's, safety off. Since I was about 8, I've carried a revolver of some description. No safety on those, except an empty chamber under the hammer on certain older ones.
I, for one, found the second shot going from DA to SA in an auto takes lots of practice. Often, under stress, or just trying to double-tap, I've fired the second shot prematurely. It's just me. Many others don't have that issue. That said, I personally like to stick with DA, SA, or striker so all trigger pulls are the same.

Practice with a few actions before buying something you don't like.

[Fishbed77]

aadosx,

It sounds like you like the SIG-Sauer P228/P229/M11-A1 in 9mm. So why not just get that?

Any one of these will make for a great all-around pistol for range fun, home defense, or carry if you are so inclined (though there are lighter/slimmer options available). Really all of SIGs are pretty much the same basic design, though the P228 has been discontinued for a number of years. It sounds like you just need to make a selection based on the features you want.

Asking here is a good start, but you will get as many suggestions as there are opinions, and as you'll find out , EVERYONE has an opinion here. Frankly, I think way to much fuss is made over DA/SA versus striker-fired. Both systems serve the same purpose and both work well.

I will say this. I love 1911s. But I would not recommend a 1911 as a first handgun, and certainly not as a first carry gun.

[pilpens]

Excellent post Tailgator.
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SA, SA/DA, DAO -- It is a preference. It is a compromise. It is training.
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HK USP has good combination of controls. 1911 style safety + Decocker, SA/DA, Safety can be engage while hammer down.
Good for most purposes (target, home defense, car gun) but sucks as CC.
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I like the 1911 at the range the most but I mostly use a SA/DA/Decocker pistol (Sig P6 or similar) for defense purposes because of the DA first shot and no external safety; I maybe replacing the Sig with a smaller DAO pistol like a Kahr K9 for better CC and simplicity.
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[Tinner666]

I need to apologize. My earlier post rambled some without a moral. The point I wanted to get across is that there is no better safety than what the 'shooter, you, provide. Practice never pointing at what you don't want shot and never touch the trigger until ready to fire. In other word, follow the safe shooter commandments at all times.

[IMTHDUKE]

Why not just pick one of these:

[iMagUdspEllr]

Choosing an action is very subjective because it is a balancing act between making the gun too safe or too dangerous. And, how each person defines "safe" or "dangerous" in reference to a gun affects where they fall on that scale.

One of the main things about firearms is that you have to be responsible for what does and doesn't go near the trigger.

I'm not a fan of the DA/SA design because the longer, heavier DA trigger pull and the transition from DA to SA provide unnecessary challenges to the shooter that affect accuracy (its important to hit what you are aiming at).

A safety on a 1911 is okay because it doesn't affect accuracy (and it has a grip safety that works when you don't have your hands on the gun). However, it has been argued that you might forget to flick off the thumb safety and attempt to fire the gun (I don't really agree as long as you adequately practice deactivating/activating the safety).

I prefer guns without safeties and long, heavy DA trigger pulls. They don't have the "issues" associated with manual safeties or DA/SA actions. The main argument against them is that they are "too dangerous". Well, I would argue that the person is responsible for what happens to the trigger... not the gun. But, that is why it is a personal choice. Remember, regardless of what kind of gun you have, you still shouldn't let branches catch the trigger or let your finger rest on the trigger.

[AH.74]

I'm not a fan of the DA/SA design because the longer, heavier DA trigger pull and the transition from DA to SA provide unnecessary challenges to the shooter that affect accuracy (its important to hit what you are aiming at).

While this is the case for some, it is not the case for all. I had very little experience shooting semis when I got my first Sig, a 228. I took to the DA/SA trigger like a fish in water, and have never had any trouble with the transition. The SA trigger in both of my Sigs are excellent and lend aid to accuracy IMO.

To the OP, if you like the Sigs you won't go wrong with any of the ones you mentioned. If the size and weight agree with you there is no reason you can't satisfy just about all your needs with one of them.

[Fishbed77]

I'm not a fan of the DA/SA design because the longer, heavier DA trigger pull and the transition from DA to SA provide unnecessary challenges to the shooter that affect accuracy (its important to hit what you are aiming at).

I've never found this to be an issue at all.

Furthermore, my thought is that, in a high-stress defensive situation, I'm not going to be "feeling" the difference at all. I'm going to be squeezing the trigger until the threat has ceased.

[ClydeFrog]

For a new or entry level gun owner, I'd highly suggest buying a simple, robust hammer fired DA only pistol.
DA only pistols are issued to many LE agents & sworn LE personnel because they are safe, easy to load-unload and can prevent any false claims of "reckless" or dangerous use in a real critical event.
Check out the PX4 C format, the HK lem or the SIG Sauer DAK series.

A .357sig, .40 or 9x19mm will do very well.

Striker fired or single action brands are better for later as your skills increase.

CF

[aadosx]

Awesome! What a great forum you guys have here. I really appreciate all of the replies. I have a quick follow up question for you guys though.

Why do some say that the 1911 wouldn't be a good beginners gun? Is it just because it has a manual safety? Or is there something else unique to that gun? If I do decide to go the 1911 route, I will definitely be getting one of the smaller ones. I've been eyeing some SIGs and Springfield Arms, in particular.

[pete2]

If you like the Sig get it. The single/double action pull isn't hard to master. The Sig is like carrying a revolver, it has a long not too light double action pull for the first shot. You can learn to shoot it, it is very unlikely that it will go off while holstering it. The so called safe action pistols are easier to set off in a holster especially after some one does a light trigger job on them. The Sig will be hard to beat.

[jimbob86]

The top two of the SA Auto (1911) trigger:

Pro: The trigger is the easiest to master for beginners. Uniform pull is smooth, light, short, and straight back. Sight picture not disturbed at all when trigger is squeezed, and suprise break is easy to achieve. Trigger reset is imperceptable.

Con: Master that trigger, and all others will compare..... poorly.

The biggest knocks on 1911's are the weight, low ammo capacity, and the cost of .45 ACP ..... I carried a 5" all steel Government model for a year, so I understand ...... now I Carry a Springfield EMP in 9mm: A 1911 that weighs about 30 oz. loaded, holds 9+1 rounds of 9mm ..... which with modern personal defense ammo, performs nearly as well as the .45 ACP, and I can afford to shoot it twice as much. The gun was pretty expensive, but I only paid for it once.

[Stressfire]

The name's John and I am getting ready to purchase and own my first firearm.

Sounds like the intro to a self-help group Welcome to the addiction

I like my DA/SAs for carry because there is no real need to use the safety as anything other than a decocker - most have heavy enough DA triggers that any chance of ND/AD, provided you have a good holster and good common sense, is negligible.

is there a safe way to de-cock the hammer once chambered

Yes, carefully and with the gun pointed in a safe direction, ride the hammer down. I suggest trying it unloaded at first to get a feel for it.

[Xfire68]

I like my SR9c but, I love my CZ 75B.

Striker fire guns have a (IMO) complete different feel about them then a gun with a hammer.

I think a gun with a hammer just feels more natural again this is just my opinion.

A gun like the FNP .45 with hammer and decocker has the best combo.

There are a number of good/great handguns out there for you to choose from regardless of the trigger you are looking for. Pick one that fits your hand and practice practice practice!

[mdThanatos]

I would opt for a consistent trigger system personally. I own a CZ 75B which is DA/SA but the only way for it to go DA is if I chamber then lower the hammer, so it is never shot DA since the safety gets engaged if it is chambered. I also shoot a Glock and am contemplating an M&P both of which are striker fired.

Basically if you aren't going to utilize the DA then don't get a pistol with it, if you do go with a DA/SA and plan on using the weapon for self defense make sure you train with the DA.

[marine6680]

A far as 1911 and beginners.

A 1911 has a very short trigger pull, and relatively light. A 5lb trigger pull on a good 1911 is very crisp short and light.

Nervous and unpracticed fingers with such a trigger can be a bad thing. Even with a safety... in a defensive situation, you switch that off, so it does not prevent poor trigger discipline.


Plus the 1911 can be a finicky platform. It has been pushed out of its comfort zone by being produced on assembly lines and being fed hollow point ammo.

Even top manufacturers are not immune to getting a few problem guns out the door.



As far as what to get... any action has its strong points. Practice with it is the most important thing.



I don't know if I'm just odd or what... but I have never felt uneasy about carrying any gun/action... when proper safety/common sense is taken in account. And I'm not very action sensitive either, I do well with any action type. For carry I do prefer DA/SA and striker. Striker probably being my most prefered, due to the usually clean lines of the pistols that use that action, being better for concealment and comfort.

Some are iffy on cocked and locked. You seem uneasy about DA/SA and striker fired due to no manual safety.

My fiance was weirded out by carrying a gun at all. So we are starting her out with a SR22 to carry, as its less intimidating to her. Not the best caliber for defense, but better than nothing, and it helps her get used to having a loaded pistol on her all the time. We will be switching her to a single stack 9mm, probably the LC9, soon.