cross-draw carry - Page 2

btmj · July 31, 2012, 10:57 AM

I agree with Hook686, In fact I was about to post the same thing, but he got there first.

When I practice drawing from concealment, it is at home, with an empty weapon. I practice the draw, the sight picture, and dry fire.

At the range, I rarely draw from a holster, and never from concealment. I practice coming from a low-ready one handed grip to a proper shooting stance and firing 2, 3, or 4 rounds.

MLeake · July 31, 2012, 11:08 AM

I practice drawing from a holster for live fire quite a bit, partly for SD training, and partly because I shoot IDPA and that's a necessary skillset.

OTOH, cross-draw rigs are not allowed in IDPA, due to concerns about muzzle sweep.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 31, 2012, 11:35 AM

Quote:

If it is a life, or death situation does it really matter ?

Well, in a life or death situation do you want to let the muzzle cover something you don't intend to destroy? It seems to me that if there is ever a time for an accident, that kind of stress has the potential to cause one.

Quote:

If I am home practicing a draw, the gun is unloaded and there is no one around to sweep. Why would anyone practice drawing with a loaded gun and other people around ?

Any kind of formal firearms instruction generally involves other people on the line with you, as does IDPA, IPSC, etc. Some of the more advanced classes will involve multiple people moving to and from cover and shooting simultaneously. And of course, if you need to draw a firearm off the range, chances are decent that there will be other people around.

I don't carry cross-draw, so I am not familiar with it; but it seems to me like a draw that did not sweep your leg/body or sweep a lot of bystanders would be difficult and not all that natural from that position. Maybe someone has a video that can demonstrate how that works?

MLeake · July 31, 2012, 01:28 PM

Bart, it's really not that hard. Same technique as you'd use for a shoulder holster. It just involves stepping back with the strongside foot, and angling your body and the weapon toward the target. Granted, the muzzle will probably be at a 30 or 45 degree angle to the target as it clears, but it will still be mostly downrange.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 31, 2012, 03:57 PM

OK, the way I am picturing it in my mind, you draw the pistol out of the cross-draw holster, drop your strong side foot back, and the rotate and push out the pistol in a Weaver stance (with the weak hand having to come in after the gun is already pushed out to avoid sweeping your own arm). That seems like that would work.

Probably having a tough time picturing it because I shoot isoceles.

**Frank Ettin** · July 31, 2012, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

OK, the way I am picturing it in my mind, you draw the pistol out of the cross-draw holster, drop your strong side foot back, and the rotate and push out the pistol in a Weaver stance (with the weak hand having to come in after the gun is already pushed out to avoid sweeping your own arm). That seems like that would work....

That gives me an idea.

[1] Reach for the pistol and assume a full firing grip. At the same time bring the support hand fairly high and flay onto the chest at center line. And step back slightly with the dominant side foot.

[2] Draw the gun from the holster keeping the muzzle general down.

[3] Bring the gun around the body toward the dominant side keeping the dominant hand close to the body. As the gun begins to pass the center line, begin to rotate the muzzle of the gun upward, toward the target -- still keeping the dominant hand close to the body.

[4] As you're rotating the muzzle toward the target, bring the gun up and slightly back into the retention position with the gun near the pectoral muscle. On guns so equipped, the safety can be disengaged during this step.

[5] From there, the presentation is the same as the usual five pint draw from a dominant side holster. The gun may be fired from the retention position to engage a close-in target. Or the support hand is in position to take its grip as you push the gun out into a Weaver or Isosceles, whichever you prefer.

[6] And of course the trigger finger stays off the trigger, outside of the trigger guard and index along the frame, until you're actually firing it.

Thus you (1) can keep the support hand out of the way; (2) can fire from the retention position if warranted; and (3) have the support hand in position to grip the gun. It'll be a little slower than a dominant side draw because the gun has to move farther.

ClydeFrog · July 31, 2012, 11:42 PM

I've shot & used different firearms off & on for approx 28 years. 4 of that being on active duty in the US armed forces.
I'm not slanted against the cross-draw carry method but I would advise caution with the format & would buy top gear(no mall ninja BS or "rookie rigs"

).
As a teen in the mid 1980s, I read an item by retired US Army solider(infantry) & Soldier of Fortune magazine writer(weapons-firearms); Peter Kolikas(check spelling) who stated he only packed his 1911 series .45acp in a leather cross-draw while on trips/details to Latin America hot spots.
He wrote that cross-draws did not "telegraph" motions & allowed rapid draws while seated.
These are valid points even in 2012 but weapon retention & concealment are factors too. In 2007, I used a 4" barrel Ruger GPNY .38spl on a security post. When I leaned down to open my patrol car's gas cap, the revolver slid out of my cross-draw & hit the pavement. Ouch! The stainless 6 gun had a few deep scratches on the frame/cylinder from the incident.
If you have the body shape-frame and understand the conditions of how to draw from a cross-draw holster, it might work well. Some armed professionals & sworn LE officers wince or wig out when they see loaded firearms in cross draws.
They may act like you just kicked their dog but I, for 1 wouldn't knock cross-draws. Just buy quality gear(Blade-tech, Galco, Milt Sparks, Greg Kramer, Bulman, Don Hume, Safariland, etc) & prepare-train with your handgun(s).

Clyde

MLeake · August 1, 2012, 12:04 AM

Frank Ettin, you more or less nailed the technique I practice.

Exception being, I take more of a step back with the strong foot (or forward with the weak foot, depending), into a hybrid of a martial arts front stance and side stance. IE, blade the body into the threat.

The weak hand could be brought to the chest, as you described, but it could also be used to strike, deflect, or fend off an assailant. (Keep line of muzzle below line of support hand and arm.)

With regard to weapon retention, the cross-draw isn't (to my mind) more problematic than strong-side. Here's my rationale:

1) With strong-side, if one is unaware of the threat, a grabber can move in from the rear or flank and grab the gun. (Edit: My usual defense against this, in practice, revolves stepping forward or back while rotating my hips and jamming down on the grabber's wrist with my strong-side hand; let CG and body mass do the work; lots of potential torque involved. I don't care how strong the guy's forearm or grip are, wrists do not typically win over hips.)

2) With cross-draw, grabbing from the rear is extremely difficult, and from the flank is difficult. An attacker to the front has a better chance of a grab, but should have a harder time surprising the carrier.

So I could see cross-draw being a problem if one were engaging in hand-to-hand, but I see it as less of a problem for a surprise grab.

Also, by blading (as previously discussed), the carrier can move the grip to an angle that can really apply some nasty torque to a would-be grabber's wrist. (See a pattern with stepping, rotating hips, and using mass to torque a joint? More advanced - bend knees slightly and drop body weight through the turn - torque from body mass and inertia, plus weight from gravity. Be very, very careful trying this with your friends, as you can tear ligaments, break fingers, etc. If you try this, do it with blue gun or red gun, and do it very slowly at first. Better yet, find an aikido or jujutsu instructor, and learn it in person.)

(Note that I used to train in iaido, the art of attacking from the draw with a katana - the sword is carried cross-draw, and the techniques one would use for defense against a sword grab work really well in practice with blue guns in cross-draw. I've tested some of these in aikido practice.)

Caveat: If we were doing this in person, I'd have you sign a release form. Please bear in mind that I am not your instructor; I recommend you find a local instructor; and I've warned you that some of these techniques could very well result in injury to training partners.

SKostas · August 18, 2012, 01:51 PM

I prefer to carry cross-draw as well. Just finished making two kydex holsters for IWB since I couldn't find any. My arms are big and long, and I feel like I'm going to wrench my shoulder everytime I try to draw strong side even with an FBI cant. It's just a more fluid action for me, and by now the muscle memory brings my sights right on where my hand stops 99.999% of the time. I use a stance similar to described above but keep my weak side a bit back and balance agressively forward on the strong foot. I don't think I cover anyone unintentiaonlly anymore than any other draw, as if this were left handed the gun would travel nearly the same. Maybe I don't carry at as much of a cant. Same thing for a shoulder rig. But it just works best for me.

wpsdlrg · August 20, 2012, 07:51 AM

I occasionally carry crossdraw, when I am carrying my small-frame revolver. I do this because it seems to conceal better this way than on my strongside, because of the rubber grip it wears.

As to sweeping "bystanders" when drawing.....this can be avoided simply by keeping the muzzle pointed downward until the gun is brought around to face the "target". I always draw to the low ready position in practice anyway, regardless of which side I draw from (with the muzzle kept down). In real SD situations (which I've thankfully never had in civilian life), I've trained myself to draw to the low ready always - as long as proximity to the target and timing allow it. Then, I will avoid actually pointing the gun at anyone, unless conditions warrant. Of course, that is only a somewhat "ideal" scenario - no one can predict in advance if that would be prudent or possible in an actual SD situation. So, judgement is required - as it is in ANY potential or actual SD situation.

My draw to the low ready is also predicated on the concept of giving the perp an "out"......if he will take it. Sometimes display of a weapon at the ready is all it takes to initiate flight. Obviously, though, if a perp is in "full attack mode", or has drawn and pointed a weapon at me, that concept no longer applies. Then, it would be draw however I can, get on target and shoot.....or duck and draw, or whatever seemed appropriate at the time.

July 31, 2012, 10:57 AM	#26
btmj Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2011 Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 864	I agree with Hook686, In fact I was about to post the same thing, but he got there first. When I practice drawing from concealment, it is at home, with an empty weapon. I practice the draw, the sight picture, and dry fire. At the range, I rarely draw from a holster, and never from concealment. I practice coming from a low-ready one handed grip to a proper shooting stance and firing 2, 3, or 4 rounds. Last edited by btmj; July 31, 2012 at 11:04 AM.

July 31, 2012, 11:42 PM	#32
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	cross-draw carry; kick the dog.... I've shot & used different firearms off & on for approx 28 years. 4 of that being on active duty in the US armed forces. I'm not slanted against the cross-draw carry method but I would advise caution with the format & would buy top gear(no mall ninja BS or "rookie rigs" ). As a teen in the mid 1980s, I read an item by retired US Army solider(infantry) & Soldier of Fortune magazine writer(weapons-firearms); Peter Kolikas(check spelling) who stated he only packed his 1911 series .45acp in a leather cross-draw while on trips/details to Latin America hot spots. He wrote that cross-draws did not "telegraph" motions & allowed rapid draws while seated. These are valid points even in 2012 but weapon retention & concealment are factors too. In 2007, I used a 4" barrel Ruger GPNY .38spl on a security post. When I leaned down to open my patrol car's gas cap, the revolver slid out of my cross-draw & hit the pavement. Ouch! The stainless 6 gun had a few deep scratches on the frame/cylinder from the incident. If you have the body shape-frame and understand the conditions of how to draw from a cross-draw holster, it might work well. Some armed professionals & sworn LE officers wince or wig out when they see loaded firearms in cross draws. They may act like you just kicked their dog but I, for 1 wouldn't knock cross-draws. Just buy quality gear(Blade-tech, Galco, Milt Sparks, Greg Kramer, Bulman, Don Hume, Safariland, etc) & prepare-train with your handgun(s). Clyde

August 1, 2012, 12:04 AM	#33
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Frank Ettin, you more or less nailed the technique I practice. Exception being, I take more of a step back with the strong foot (or forward with the weak foot, depending), into a hybrid of a martial arts front stance and side stance. IE, blade the body into the threat. The weak hand could be brought to the chest, as you described, but it could also be used to strike, deflect, or fend off an assailant. (Keep line of muzzle below line of support hand and arm.) With regard to weapon retention, the cross-draw isn't (to my mind) more problematic than strong-side. Here's my rationale: 1) With strong-side, if one is unaware of the threat, a grabber can move in from the rear or flank and grab the gun. (Edit: My usual defense against this, in practice, revolves stepping forward or back while rotating my hips and jamming down on the grabber's wrist with my strong-side hand; let CG and body mass do the work; lots of potential torque involved. I don't care how strong the guy's forearm or grip are, wrists do not typically win over hips.) 2) With cross-draw, grabbing from the rear is extremely difficult, and from the flank is difficult. An attacker to the front has a better chance of a grab, but should have a harder time surprising the carrier. So I could see cross-draw being a problem if one were engaging in hand-to-hand, but I see it as less of a problem for a surprise grab. Also, by blading (as previously discussed), the carrier can move the grip to an angle that can really apply some nasty torque to a would-be grabber's wrist. (See a pattern with stepping, rotating hips, and using mass to torque a joint? More advanced - bend knees slightly and drop body weight through the turn - torque from body mass and inertia, plus weight from gravity. Be very, very careful trying this with your friends, as you can tear ligaments, break fingers, etc. If you try this, do it with blue gun or red gun, and do it very slowly at first. Better yet, find an aikido or jujutsu instructor, and learn it in person.) (Note that I used to train in iaido, the art of attacking from the draw with a katana - the sword is carried cross-draw, and the techniques one would use for defense against a sword grab work really well in practice with blue guns in cross-draw. I've tested some of these in aikido practice.) Caveat: If we were doing this in person, I'd have you sign a release form. Please bear in mind that I am not your instructor; I recommend you find a local instructor; and I've warned you that some of these techniques could very well result in injury to training partners. Last edited by MLeake; August 1, 2012 at 12:15 AM.

July 31, 2012, 11:08 AM	#27
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I practice drawing from a holster for live fire quite a bit, partly for SD training, and partly because I shoot IDPA and that's a necessary skillset. OTOH, cross-draw rigs are not allowed in IDPA, due to concerns about muzzle sweep.

July 31, 2012, 01:28 PM	#29
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Bart, it's really not that hard. Same technique as you'd use for a shoulder holster. It just involves stepping back with the strongside foot, and angling your body and the weapon toward the target. Granted, the muzzle will probably be at a 30 or 45 degree angle to the target as it clears, but it will still be mostly downrange.

July 31, 2012, 03:57 PM	#30
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	OK, the way I am picturing it in my mind, you draw the pistol out of the cross-draw holster, drop your strong side foot back, and the rotate and push out the pistol in a Weaver stance (with the weak hand having to come in after the gun is already pushed out to avoid sweeping your own arm). That seems like that would work. Probably having a tough time picturing it because I shoot isoceles.

August 18, 2012, 01:51 PM	#34
SKostas Member Join Date: July 9, 2008 Posts: 21	I prefer to carry cross-draw as well. Just finished making two kydex holsters for IWB since I couldn't find any. My arms are big and long, and I feel like I'm going to wrench my shoulder everytime I try to draw strong side even with an FBI cant. It's just a more fluid action for me, and by now the muscle memory brings my sights right on where my hand stops 99.999% of the time. I use a stance similar to described above but keep my weak side a bit back and balance agressively forward on the strong foot. I don't think I cover anyone unintentiaonlly anymore than any other draw, as if this were left handed the gun would travel nearly the same. Maybe I don't carry at as much of a cant. Same thing for a shoulder rig. But it just works best for me.

August 20, 2012, 07:51 AM	#35
wpsdlrg Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2009 Posts: 826	I occasionally carry crossdraw, when I am carrying my small-frame revolver. I do this because it seems to conceal better this way than on my strongside, because of the rubber grip it wears. As to sweeping "bystanders" when drawing.....this can be avoided simply by keeping the muzzle pointed downward until the gun is brought around to face the "target". I always draw to the low ready position in practice anyway, regardless of which side I draw from (with the muzzle kept down). In real SD situations (which I've thankfully never had in civilian life), I've trained myself to draw to the low ready always - as long as proximity to the target and timing allow it. Then, I will avoid actually pointing the gun at anyone, unless conditions warrant. Of course, that is only a somewhat "ideal" scenario - no one can predict in advance if that would be prudent or possible in an actual SD situation. So, judgement is required - as it is in ANY potential or actual SD situation. My draw to the low ready is also predicated on the concept of giving the perp an "out"......if he will take it. Sometimes display of a weapon at the ready is all it takes to initiate flight. Obviously, though, if a perp is in "full attack mode", or has drawn and pointed a weapon at me, that concept no longer applies. Then, it would be draw however I can, get on target and shoot.....or duck and draw, or whatever seemed appropriate at the time.