Talk about vintage powder-Update

number2onmyshoe · August 23, 2009, 02:11 PM

Original thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=369213

Well, I used it to load up some 25-06 rounds, and I'll tell you it will be going on the garden now.

I loaded 5 Winchester once fired brass with WLR primers, 120 gr Sierra Game Kings and 46 grains of the old 4831, I looked at a couple of older manuals and both listed 48 grains as the starting weight so I backed it down another 2 full grains just to be sure, and I'm glad I did.

The first round seemed like quite a bit of recoil and muzzle blast for a 46 gr charge, I had no problem extracting it and on inspection the primer was flattened just a bit. The second round was the same as the first, except when I inspected it it had actually backed the primer out of the pocket, you can guess I didn't try a third, I have great faith in Remington 700's, but not that much.

Today I pulled the other 3 and double checked to make sure I didn't overcharge when I put them together (I check every charge 3 times before it goes in the case anyway), and found that I did indeed have 46 gr in each of the remaining 3).

I put the 2 fired cases in the tumbler overnight and today I lubed them up and when I put the first one in the sizer I couldn't even get it in 3/4 of the way without leaning on the handle of the rockchucker, the second was a little easier but still took more than usual effort. Looking at the brass after sizing and polishing they both have fire rings around the base, extractor marks on the rims, and the primer pockets are loose, the ejected primers came apart completely, the anvils fell right out of the cups.

I put 5 rounds of factory ammo through it after I fired the 2 handloads and checked them with the headspace guage and they seem fine compared to previously fired and recorded brass, so I'm pretty confident I didn't damage the rifle, thank god....

So, I learned 2 morals from this story, 1. I'm glad I didn't use the 2009 Hodgdon manual to work up the loads, it lists 51 gr as a starting weight, ouch, that would've hurt the wallet at the gunsmith or worse yet, me. 2. Never use old powder, even if you think it's good because of variances in manufacture over time.

Shoney · August 23, 2009, 03:06 PM

My Hodgdon data lists 48.0 gr with either H or IMR as a starting load. I purchase quite a bit of surplus 4831 in the 60's and used the last of it just a few years ago.

One factor was not discussed in the thread you listed, and that is the volatile compounds (VOC’s) have evaporated out of the powder. This results in the powder being lighter in weight, but no less potent. So the starting charge should be decreased as you have done.

Primers are not very good signs of pressure, because some brands are soft, while others are quite hard. I have flattened some brands of primers at very low pressure. What brand of primer are you using?

The fired cases from any batch of medium pressure loads can be widely different in the force required to resize them.

Bottom line. I think you need to try a different primer and start loads a little lower before tossing the powder.

number2onmyshoe · August 23, 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

What brand of primer are you using?

I used Winchester Standard Large Rifle primers, this is the first time I've used Winchesters as I've always stuck to CCI's or Federals in the past. You bring up a good point about the possibility of softer primers, is it normal for Winchester primers to separate?, I've never seen the other brands come apart...

Shoney · August 23, 2009, 03:48 PM

The only time I had a primer separate, I was using Federal's in some old, tired cases where the primers seated very easily.

As far as hardness, the CCI's are hardest; Federal the softest; and Winchester somewhere in the middle.

The Winchester LR primers are much closer to magnums in potency than the Federal or CCI. That may be a factor in your test.

Go with the CCI (if you can get them), and back off a few grains more and work up you loads.

Good Shooting!!!

Sport45 · August 23, 2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

The second round was the same as the first, except when I inspected it it had actually backed the primer out of the pocket,

In my experience that is a sign of low pressure. The primer always backs out. The case has to stretch or recoil backwards to reseat them. I wonder if something else was going on here.

The other signs point to excessive pressure, but why didn't the primer reseat?

Farmland · August 23, 2009, 08:36 PM

Is it possible that the original person may have place or mixed different powders into this can? I'm not saying that is the case but it makes you wonder.

David Wile · August 23, 2009, 09:07 PM

Hey folks,

4831 powder was already more than twenty years old when I first began to use the surplus powder in the late 1950s. I was still using the surplus 4831 in the 1970s without any signs of deterioraton, and it still smelled the same as when I first bought it. Remember, the first 4831 powder was surplus powder made for and even before WWII.

I never had any powder go bad for me, and I have purchased large lots of powder that I have had some over thirty years on my shelf. I don't know what could make a powder go bad; it never happened to me. But I have heard of folks putting one kind of powder in a different powder can and then making a big mistake. Whether that happened here or not, I, of course, do not know. But I am still using some surplus powders that I purchased nearly thirty years ago in large quantity.

I would agree with No. 2 that he should dispose of any powder he has reason to suspect is not what it is supposed to be.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

August 23, 2009, 02:11 PM	#1
number2onmyshoe Member Join Date: July 8, 2009 Posts: 23	Talk about vintage powder-Update Original thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=369213 Well, I used it to load up some 25-06 rounds, and I'll tell you it will be going on the garden now. I loaded 5 Winchester once fired brass with WLR primers, 120 gr Sierra Game Kings and 46 grains of the old 4831, I looked at a couple of older manuals and both listed 48 grains as the starting weight so I backed it down another 2 full grains just to be sure, and I'm glad I did. The first round seemed like quite a bit of recoil and muzzle blast for a 46 gr charge, I had no problem extracting it and on inspection the primer was flattened just a bit. The second round was the same as the first, except when I inspected it it had actually backed the primer out of the pocket, you can guess I didn't try a third, I have great faith in Remington 700's, but not that much. Today I pulled the other 3 and double checked to make sure I didn't overcharge when I put them together (I check every charge 3 times before it goes in the case anyway), and found that I did indeed have 46 gr in each of the remaining 3). I put the 2 fired cases in the tumbler overnight and today I lubed them up and when I put the first one in the sizer I couldn't even get it in 3/4 of the way without leaning on the handle of the rockchucker, the second was a little easier but still took more than usual effort. Looking at the brass after sizing and polishing they both have fire rings around the base, extractor marks on the rims, and the primer pockets are loose, the ejected primers came apart completely, the anvils fell right out of the cups. I put 5 rounds of factory ammo through it after I fired the 2 handloads and checked them with the headspace guage and they seem fine compared to previously fired and recorded brass, so I'm pretty confident I didn't damage the rifle, thank god.... So, I learned 2 morals from this story, 1. I'm glad I didn't use the 2009 Hodgdon manual to work up the loads, it lists 51 gr as a starting weight, ouch, that would've hurt the wallet at the gunsmith or worse yet, me. 2. Never use old powder, even if you think it's good because of variances in manufacture over time. Last edited by number2onmyshoe; August 23, 2009 at 02:13 PM. Reason: fixed url link to original thread

August 23, 2009, 03:06 PM	#2
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	My Hodgdon data lists 48.0 gr with either H or IMR as a starting load. I purchase quite a bit of surplus 4831 in the 60's and used the last of it just a few years ago. One factor was not discussed in the thread you listed, and that is the volatile compounds (VOC’s) have evaporated out of the powder. This results in the powder being lighter in weight, but no less potent. So the starting charge should be decreased as you have done. Primers are not very good signs of pressure, because some brands are soft, while others are quite hard. I have flattened some brands of primers at very low pressure. What brand of primer are you using? The fired cases from any batch of medium pressure loads can be widely different in the force required to resize them. Bottom line. I think you need to try a different primer and start loads a little lower before tossing the powder. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

August 23, 2009, 03:48 PM	#4
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	The only time I had a primer separate, I was using Federal's in some old, tired cases where the primers seated very easily. As far as hardness, the CCI's are hardest; Federal the softest; and Winchester somewhere in the middle. The Winchester LR primers are much closer to magnums in potency than the Federal or CCI. That may be a factor in your test. Go with the CCI (if you can get them), and back off a few grains more and work up you loads. Good Shooting!!! __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

August 23, 2009, 08:36 PM	#6
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	Is it possible that the original person may have place or mixed different powders into this can? I'm not saying that is the case but it makes you wonder.

August 23, 2009, 09:07 PM	#7
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey folks, 4831 powder was already more than twenty years old when I first began to use the surplus powder in the late 1950s. I was still using the surplus 4831 in the 1970s without any signs of deterioraton, and it still smelled the same as when I first bought it. Remember, the first 4831 powder was surplus powder made for and even before WWII. I never had any powder go bad for me, and I have purchased large lots of powder that I have had some over thirty years on my shelf. I don't know what could make a powder go bad; it never happened to me. But I have heard of folks putting one kind of powder in a different powder can and then making a big mistake. Whether that happened here or not, I, of course, do not know. But I am still using some surplus powders that I purchased nearly thirty years ago in large quantity. I would agree with No. 2 that he should dispose of any powder he has reason to suspect is not what it is supposed to be. Best wishes, Dave Wile