I am a cop and could use your handgun expertise.

[dojpros]

I am a federal prosecutor and have been for the last 11 years. I am a graduate of of Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and other smaller shooting schools. I qualify with the agencies with whom I work 8 to 12 times ayear and go to PD during open range 2 x a month. I also shoot IPSC/IDPA 2 times a month and train with a buch of my GS/TR travel buddies on a monthly basis. (Some guys golf, I shoot...) I say all this to give you an idea of where I am coming from, not to brag in any way.


I will make the following observations/comments.

1. Good on you that you carry off duty and are seeking advice re your firearms. The fact that you carry anything off duty puts you ahead of 80-90 percent of the officers and agents with whom I work. I recently had the off -duty discussion in an email group which was discussing the most recent rash of mall shootings and posted the following:


"Thank you for taking the time to send this out. As a result of this shooting, I immediately ordered and began carrying a second magazine pouch.
Assuming a compact or full sized Glock/Sig /Smith and Wesson type weapons platform, that gives the responder approximately 36 to 51 rounds. You point regarding the carrying of a Glock 27 Subcompact or a 5 shot revolver is very well taken {as in perhaps a bad idea given the threat a mall shooter poses and the fact that the Utah officer who first engaged only had a 7 round 1911 with no reload}

At the expense of being at the edge of my lane , I will make the following observation, I find it interesting that 85 to 90% of the hundreds of officers/agents I have worked with in my last 11 years as a prosecutor routinely pick and choose when they carry an off duty weapon.
Moreover, it is been my experience that the majority of officers/agents, when they choose to carry, often compromise their gunfighting ability by carrying a subcompact pistol or 5 shot revolver with no reload. The rationales offered for such a choice usually revolve around some neighborhoods and/or activities being safer than others (a flawed premise given the relatively affluent nature of the malls in Utah, Illinois and even here in xx re xx Parkway Mall Shooting ) and the “uncomfortable” nature of carrying a full sized firearm and a reload in civilian clothes. Some agencies compound this issue by allowing or even “encouraging “ their officers/agents to carry off duty yet fail to provide (or at least reimburse the officers’/agents’ the purchase of) quality off duty equipment such as concealment holsters that allow for the weapon to be reholstered one handed and light/mag pouches.

In short, there is a cultural norm for the majority of off duty officers/agents not carrying their weapons at all or knowingly choosing to carry a less effective weapon. Ladies and Gentlemen, I would assert that given the times we live in, the above described behavior is no longer acceptable.
I fully acknowledge that there may be times that it may be better to be a good witness and observe a situation from a position of cover and/or concealment. Having said that, don’t we owe it to ourselves, our families and our communities to at least be equipped in such a way to have a choice re responding to a given threat?


2. In that vein, I suggest your carry your g22 as a primary, always, period. with either your g27 or your "new" pistol for backup. This may require you investing in a better belt, a quality off duty rig, pants with a bigger waist, baggier clothes etc. You simply have to dress around the weapon.
My suggestion maximizes your gunfighting effectiveness in the extraordinarily off chance you get involed in an OIS, off duty (or on for that matter).

3. As predators run in packs and these"event" shootings are not abaiting, comfort be dammed. I want to have a pistol on my waist that I can aquire a full fighting grip on and maxmize my effectiveness. Any other pstol merely augments my primary, it doed not replace it.

YMMV

Thank you for the work that you do and please stay safe.

[Alleykat]

Good post, DOJPROS! I'm not in l.e., but do carry just about everywhere. What's your opinion of carrying a G26 or G27 with a larger-cap mag on the belt?

[sw_florida]

Hello cop. I recommend the HK P2000 in .357 sig. $1000. Ideally I'd like that handgun myself in situations where I can't conceal my large .357 magnum revolver. I had to settle with a new old stock Star M43 9mm, which was less than half the price of the HK. I can even carry it in my front pocket, cocked and with safety on. 8+7 rounds with the extra mag is a much nicer situation than 5+5 rounds in a slow-to-reload snubby revolver. I'm going to dump my snubby soon.

[LanceOregon]

That is now followed by the "Hello Kitty defense", and gets the shooter off, scott free, regardless of circumstance....

Well, how could anyone who likes Hello Kitty possibly be a threat to society??

Hello Kitty has even conquered Darth Vader!!

[thepensmith]

Have you looked at the Rohrbaugh? ( http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/product/prod_set.html ) it is the worlds smallest .9 and a great BUG. My wife has one and loves it. We looked at almost all of the small carry guns out there but we felt undergunned with the .32 or .380 and felt that the .9 provided more stopping power and a wide range of ammo to select from. They are not cheap but how much is the safety of the family worth?

[parrothead2581]

If you get the Seecamp, send me the grip and I will engrave a donut on it for you instead of the Punisher logo like I did on mine

I would prefer Charlize Theron or Petra Nemcova. Pleeeeeeeease.

[.351winchester]

Colt Pony Pocketlite .380, DAO (12 oz IIRC). You can find them for 550 and up. Grind off some of the tang though (it still won't stamp the web of your hand). Their Pocket Nine is too valuable to use.
Just a metal frame alternative for ya. The Mustang is sweet but if you're used to a Glock and may have to whip her out as a #2, maybe should stick with a basic DAO.

The baby Kahrs are pretty small, littler than your 27. A 9mm polymer would be a respectable choice, fits pretty much anywhere you can carry a BUG. And very similar to the Glocks you put time in with already. Just thinner from being a single stack, and flatter. That could be my choice in your shoes.

How about a Smith 332 Centennial .32 Mag? Lightweight, great to carry/use as backup, 6 powerful shots with better control than a .38. These are pretty cheap, last I checked distributors still had them and closing them out, I think like 450. More traditional option, a snubnose.

[dojpros]

Alleykat, if your hand is of the size that you have a full firing grip on a g26/27,then fine. If not, I would move up to a g19/23 (it also has a light rail giving it even more versatility)as my primary weapon. Re the use of a larger mag into a g26/27, I would say yes so long as you use a spacer to insure that you do not overinsert the larger mag into the smaller framed gun, locking it up. I know that there is the shelf on the left side of every mag that is supposed to prevent overinsertation, but call me a belt and suspenders kind of guy.

[Alleykat]

Yep, I use the A&G mag sleeves on G19 mags for G26 backup mags. I don't have any trouble with the grip and find accuracy to be just fine with the G26. With 11 rounds of good ammo, I'm still way ahead of the 1911/revolver crowd.

[JLK]

SIG 232. A great .380 I have a small hand and a lot of guns sting when I fire them but the 232 fitts great and handles recoil great.

[obxned]

Either get a second generation KelTec P3AT or wait until Ruger has worked the bugs out of the LCP.

[Deaf Smith]

I am a federal prosecutor and have been for the last 11 years. I am a graduate of of Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and other smaller shooting schools. I qualify with the agencies with whom I work 8 to 12 times ayear and go to PD during open range 2 x a month. I also shoot IPSC/IDPA 2 times a month and train with a buch of my GS/TR travel buddies on a monthly basis. (Some guys golf, I shoot...)

Your a man after my own heart, dojpros. While I spend time in the dojo as well as the range, still like you 'some golf, I shoot'! Grad of such schools myself, but my play is IDPA now and not IPSC (just don't have the time!)

I sure wish more people would drop such games as golf and get more trigger time.

[randyc74]

"Since you are looking for DEEP concealment, a j frame is obviously not valid here".

I guess it kind of depends on your definition of deep concealment. When I pinned on the badge 32 years ago, we didn't have the vast array of mini hand cannons that are available today. We were basically limited to the 5/6 shot subnose revolvers or if we really wanted to live dangerously a .25 cal automatic or 2 shot derringer. Working undercover, we packed what ever was available.
The times sure have changed.

[nemoaz]

(Some guys golf, I shoot...)

http://www.policeone.com/policeonetv/clip/1688083/

Ahhhh, but you shouldn't golf.

2. In that vein, I suggest your carry your g22 as a primary, always, period. with either your g27 or your "new" pistol for backup. This may require you investing in a better belt, a quality off duty rig, pants with a bigger waist, baggier clothes etc. You simply have to dress around the weapon.

+1. Do you qual with your G27? How many points does it cost you? My P2000sk cost me about 25. I also felt a lack of confidence in making longer range head shots with it. The darn sights are just too close together for these increasingly elderly eyes.

I doubt anyone could qual with a our agency course with a Seecamp. No real ability to hit 25 or 50 yard 5 rings with a Seecamp. Four in six from the hoslter at 15 yards. Right.

The threat is real. Read about Beslan and the other school or mall shootings. Bin Ladin promises us a hundred Beslans. He's been pretty good with his promises so far.

If you are working UC, get some advise from a vet UC. The real rule with that is to look like a criminal. No holster. A gun that a dirtbag would carry. Some brands are less "coppish" than others.

There are also forums that may be more appropriate for agent specific advise, like Officer.com or policeone.com.

I promise you though, you don't ever want to be at the Columbine or Beslan--heck even backing up a buddy on traffic stop-- while looking down the sight channel of a .32.

[BikerRN]

OK, I'm twice your age and I started on wheelguns, and prefer to carry three of them off duty.

Yes, I'm "Old School" and I carry three guns off duty at the same time, as well as reloads. I recently got rid of my PM9 because it wasn't reliable enough for me, as a BUG.

To me, a BUG is a last ditch, cannot fail weapon that MUST work 100% of the time. Therefore my BUG is an Airweight J-Frame in 38 Special. Stay safe and watch your back.

Biker

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

Deep Concealment.

I've been looking at the same category of guns as you and have came to realization that they are either garbage I won't trust (Keltec's feel too cheap, terrible trigger, LCP looks nice but again, still too new) or too expensive.

I already own a Bersa Thunder .380. I can carry it in sweatshorts with a cheap IWB holster OR it disappears in an ankle holster. I know some have had bad experiences with them but mine has been reliable and it's a nice shooter from 7-15 yards. And there is no bite.

The pocket gun category does fill a niche but I don't feel good carrying something I can't shoot a sub 3" group with at 7 yards (and I'm not a good shot). My Bersa fills that role nicely.

[Socrates]

wpd8918:
You bring up some really valid issues. You mentioned the width of the J frames, so, I got out my ruler. Beretta 950 is about 1", or a little more wide. Jframe grips, boot grips, where well over 1.6" wide, and, they compromise the gun for pocket, and other kinds of close body carry.
I'm not going to go there, but think May West...


Since your well made point, I took a sanding block to the grips, and, got them down to a much smoother contour for CCW, without the big bulge. I'll take pictures in a bit. They now measure right at one inch. Your glocks are at least 1.25" thick. The cylinder is easily concealed in the area I carry, and only the grip sticks up.

I use 148 grain Fioochi HP's at about 1100-1130 fps from my J frame. The Glock 26 has been known to get 125 grain bullets to 1200 fps. My J frame will send Corbon's no longer made 125 grain HP's at 1204 fps.

The bad news is physics. When you cut a guns weight in half, it's not a real surprise that the recoil speed doubles.

Your 26 will be lucky to get anywhere near 20 fps in recoil speed. My 360PD with 357 mag loads is moving between 35 and 45 fps. Simply put, that's more then most humans arms can handle, and, I'm a big bore firearm lover.

There is no reason a J frame can't have narrow enough grips that don't sacrifice concealability. As far as shooting ballistics, I think the J frame is the only gun that offers a big savings from your 26, and, that's in weight.

Ballistics wise, the .357 125 grain bullets go just as fast out of your 26 as they do the Jframe. The guns are the same size. Yes, you can pocket carry a jframe, but, YOUR A POLICE OFFICER. Why limit your rounds to half of the 26, and, most people can't shoot the ultralights accurately anyway.

In your position, I'd be looking at a Glock 30, or better, 29, and carry that. Your job is to look for trouble, and stick your nose in. For that reason, I'd like something I felt confident in, and, that packed a punch, and was fairly flat shooting, since you could run into a situation requiring longer range shooting then I ever would. Check that, I do shoot pistols at 100 yards....

I find a jframe a sideways move, at best. You'd be better served moving to the DT 165 grain HP's, at 1400 fps, that open up to 1.02". That is a sizeable increase in horsepower, enough to justify buying a different gun and caliber.

By the way, the S&@ 357 J frames are the biggest POJ every made. Combine MIM trigger parts that feel like 60 grit sandpaper, a 15 lb trigger pull, and a 1000 dollar price tag, and I can safely say I've never felt so hosed buying a firearm. I now refuse to EVER buy another S&@ after my experience with this gun. For a 1000 dollars, I got grips on the gun made of RUBBER. Really good for CCW. Doesn't catch on your clothes at all...

Don't let me forget the auto lock. Mine came on after about 150 rounds of .38 special, and .357, and, 2000-3000 dry fires. Locked the gun up like a convict.
Took a master gunsmith for me to get out of jail, and make the gun suitable for it's intended purpose.

If you get a J frame size gun, get a Colt!!!!
If you can't find one, get a 38 special S&@. Half the price fo the scandium 357's, or get a 60.

Also, 357 really likes a 3" barrel, and, as an officer, that's what I would want to get the ballistics that make the .357 a .357.

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and, the conclusion I come up with is I would rather have a Glock 36, 39, and, they weigh the same as your 26.

The 29 is a good bit heavier, but, it and the 30 offer the same number of rounds, and, a serious increase in both bullet weight, and velocity from the 26.

[nemoaz]

One other point, regardless of the width issue, a J frame really shines when carried in an ankle holster. I say shine in a relative way, because I don't find an ankle holster to be an acceptable way of carrying. However, if you are wedded to the concept, a j frame fits on the ankle in a much more comfortable way than a G27 or P2000sk sized weapon. The weight of the J frame is centered near the cylinder and is held in place by the ankle holster. The weight of almost all autos is centered in the grip and will flip around when an auto is carried in an ankle holster (at least the auto's I've carried none of which does not include any mouse guns).

[ssilicon]

i may be some young smug 22 year old kid who is still wet behind the ears but when it comes to revolvers i just dont "get it" all i can think of is myself dressed up like its the seventies running around like dirty harry,

You come on here and make seemingly mature request for advice. You even give a list of things you are concerned with, and things you aren't. Well, a small revolver in .38+P or .357mag scores well in about every things you say is important to you, then you spout off what I quoted above which is about 100% out of alignment with what you said was not important; "looks" which is closely related to image, which is what your talking about above being of such a bother to you. You're coming off rather silly looking at the end of the day here! CONSIDER THE REVOLVER! Besides, Dirty Hairy was as cool as they get if image has to be so important to you.

[Socrates]

Here are numbers to backup my recoil arguments:

360PD loads

Double Tap
.38 Special +P 125gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP (LV) 50rds $25.95
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 32 fps.

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Heavy .38 Special
Item No. 20C/20 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet — 854 fps (256 ft. lbs.) from S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—854 fps (256 ft. lbs.)
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps.

Item No. 20E/20 Speer Low Velocity uni-core 125 gr. Jacketed hollow cavity — 921 fps (235 ft. lbs.) from S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel
· S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—921 fps (235 ft. lbs.
Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 27 fps.


Federal Personal defense 357 158 grain hp 1240 fps
Recoil Energy of 24 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 46 fps.
Minus 100 fps
Recoil Energy of 20 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 42 fps.
American Eagle 130 grain FMJ
950 fps
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps.
Federal Premium Low recoil .357 130 grain HPs 1300 fps
Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 41 fps.
Fioochi 357 Magnum 148 grain 1300 fps
Recoil Energy of 24 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 45 fps.
Heavy 38 special Plus P 158 item 20A Buffalobore 1040 fps
Recoil Energy of 17 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 38 fps.
Other possible loads:
BB Tactical Short Barrel, Low Flash, Reduced Recoil 357 Magnum
125gr. Speer Unicore (Gold Dot) bullet @ 1,109 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
Recoil Energy of 13 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 34 fps.


Out of a model 60
125 grain HP Corbon 1204:
Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.
125 grain Buffalobore at 1425 fps
Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.
Federal Personal defense 357 158 grain hp 1240 fps
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps.

Glock 26
125 grain at 1250 fps
Recoil Energy of 7 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.
Glock 30
230 grains at 1015 fps DT load
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.

Bottom line is weight cures the .357 recoil velocity. The 12-15 oz guns are really good for nothing but .38 specials, and 125's at that, if you have to qualify with it. The Glock 26 trigger is easily 2-3 times as good as the S&@ current j frames 'trigger', and, I don't LIKE Glock triggers...

I see NO reason to get another gun, unless it's a 26, 29, or 30. Heck, even a 39 or 36 would work as a backup gun...

[wpd8918]

After all these considerations, my own research and talking with people including my Sgt, gunstore owners and all of you on this forum (Dojpros, your post was excellent it makes a great deal of sense) i may have come to a decision. I think im just gonna stick with what i have. I have 100% faith in my glocks and my ability to use them. Most firearms i found (jframes, kahrs, most .380s...) were just slightly smaller and therefore didnt fit what i was looking for and the few that were definately much much smaller, and what i would consider true pocket pistols, im not sure would be adequate in stopping power, capacity, accuracy and controlability probably leaving me at a great disadvantage. I feel this is the right decision. Now the one problem still is that the 27 wont stay in place strapped to my vest as an on-duty BUG so i might still consider a guardian or lcp for that but want to do more research (id love to here more about both of these). Thank you again for all your advice and if any of you would like to share your opinions on on-duty back up guns let me know.

also, i WILL NOT carry an ankle rig. i just simply dont like it at all. i pride myself on my ability to run anyone down and feel this hinders my stride and i dont think i could get to it as effectively as something stuck in a pocket or stuck in my vest.

ssilicon, sorry if i offended you that was simply an attempt at some humor and i was trying to be silly. i have nothing against dirty harry or any of the other old 70's cop movies in fact i enjoy them greatly and clint eastwood is an icon. i always appreciate it when my father reccomends an old cop movie that i havent seen or usually even heard of. but being serious im not very familiar with revolvers at all other than how to safely handle and operate/unload them.

nemoaz, to answer your question yes i will have to qualify on the 27 but i have not done so yet. i am 3 weeks out of the academy and the only gun ive qualified on yet officially is my 22 which i did so in the academy itself. our next qualifications are the 1st week of june. honestly i dont know how the breakdown of points work. as far as UC work it is going to be very limited as we are quite the small rural town and ive lived there my entire life so everyone pretty well knows me. but if the situation arises or if i get on a larger department where this is more of a possiblity i will remember your above advice.

thank you all again very much!

[Socrates]

Would Kangaroo carry help you?

[nemoaz]

Now the one problem still is that the 27 wont stay in place strapped to my vest as an on-duty BUG so i might still consider a guardian or lcp for that but want to do more research

I take it you are talking about the holster coming loose from the body armor strap? Or is the BA strap's velcro unable to take the weight? Or is the Glock falling out of the holster? For the first (holster unable to grip the BA strap or the G27 falling out of the holster) I'd try another holster. If the velcro won't hold, start by cleaning it with a pen or something to get all those fuzzies out of there. I don't carry a BUG on my vest but the ones that I've seen that work the best appear to be the holsters that have a loop for the BA velcro (not a metal clip) and a worn INSIDE the velcro strap. Also, if the weight is too much, you may try dodwnloading a few rounds. The G27 with 5+1 weights much less than a 10+1 or 12+1. Why do that instead of getting a Kahr or something? Because you
can still feed the G27 with those fifteen rounders on your belt or in your war bag.

also, i WILL NOT carry an ankle rig. i just simply dont like it at all.

I don't like them either. But a good one doesn't let a jframe flop around. But even an ankle rig is probably more accessible than a body armor vest holster. But even with a good holster holding a j frame, their is that "off balance" feeling of having the weight on one ankle but not the other. Some guys put a speedloader or spare mag on the other ankle to minimize this.

Are you allowed to carry in the front pants pocket or jacket pocket. I've seen many guys who do this. Not sure how I feel about this with a G27. I always wear a holster, but maybe if I had a NY trigger (similar to a J frame trigger weight), I'd consider carrying it that way. Again, the Glock is probably too heavy for pocket carry, but maybe if you downloaded it, you could make it work. You would want something like this also: http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum6443.php

Other options:
1. There are hide in plain view kind of pouches that can be used to hide a backup on your duty belt. They look just like a large square pouch. I'll try to find a link. Have room on the bat belt or do you have that sucker full already. You young skinny guys have more trouble than some of us older guys. This might be my first choice for uniform carry, especially if you can't carry in a pant or jacket pocket.

EDIT: I'm thinking of something like this http://www.unclemikes.com/products/gun_pak_pouch.html only vertical. In size and construction, it was a lot like a rifle magazine case.

EDIT NUMERO DOS: Warmer still, http://www.personaldefensesolutions....roduct_Count=0

EDIT NUMERO TRES: Even warmer, but not quite http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=50MOD&C=C1404

2. Get a shoulder holster and wear it over your body armor but under your uni. Any of these on your vest options work better with a zip up shirt BTW. A Marshal friend of mine who dies a lot of high risk fugops does this. He also carries an extra mag and backup light on the offside.

3. Belly hand- when I was working as a prosecutor, I carried one of these often. You can wear the belly band low with the gun in the normal hip belt position, but wear it inside the pants. Now, in uniform, you already have a gun on your strongside hip, so maybe on the offhand side with the butt If your vest fits correctly, maybe you could make this work.

4. Those deep cover holsters that allow you to tuck your shirt in around it. Again, wear it on the offside. http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1896.php

5. Thunderwear/smartcarry. No thanks.

I'm sure there are others that I'm not thinking of right now.

[Socrates]

http://www.gunblast.com/Kangaroo.htm

[jay4au]

I have both the P3AT and new Ruger LCP. Put about 500 rounds through the P3AT, and the little pistol has been reliable after the first 150 or so rounds. The LCP has been flawless so far, but with only 150 rounds of wwb, a magazine each of Cor Bons and Golden Sabers, and about 50 rounds of old "Western" hollow points. The LCP is finished better, and felt recoil, to me, is less than the P3AT. Accuracy is about the same. Both guns ride easily in the same size Desantis Nemesis holster in either front or rear pockets. How many rounds should a person shoot to determine reliability? I've got about 225 through the LCP with zero problems. The bottom line is these guns are easy to conceal but are strictly up close weapons of last resort. The LCP is ahead of the P3AT so far, but not much ahead since the P3AT finally got broken in.