October 1, 2017, 03:02 PM | #26 |
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Of course bullet placement trumps bullet weight or speed. A 40 grain 22 cal. bullet to the brain or heart will kill effectively .
My wife keeps telling me and Elmer Keith's thought's were....bigger is better, all other things being equal ! I'll vote .45 and 230 grains. Gary |
October 1, 2017, 05:13 PM | #27 |
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OK guys check this info out
A 9mm round that has more muzzle energy than a 45acp. Caliber: 9mm Bullet Weight: 124 Grains Bullet Type: Full Metal Jacket Projectile Muzzle velocity: 1150 fps Muzzle energy: 364 ft/lbs Am I learning that ammo choice is important factor? Remember I'm new to guns, just this year. |
October 1, 2017, 05:29 PM | #28 |
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Check the numbers on this bad boy 9mm.
9mm Luger +P, 9x19mm 115 Grain Full Metal Jacket Bullet Reloadable Brass Cased Non Corrosive Primers Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps Muzzle Energy: 399 ft/lbs |
October 1, 2017, 05:39 PM | #29 |
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IMO, there's no real "winner" here, you have to embrace them both
for what they are. 9mm is a very efficient cartridge for it's size. The 45ACP, designed by John Browning, does what it was designed to do, very well. The drawback to 45ACP is it's very strong in it's specific purpose, but fades quickly beyond it. Past SD distances, it is a heavy,slow, under-powered round. |
October 1, 2017, 06:04 PM | #30 |
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I own both calibers, carry both, and greatly enjoy shooting both, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
My two favorite self defense loading in 9mm and .45 auto are: 124 grain Speer Gold Dot ( standard pressure). Vel. 1150 FPS. KE 364 ft. lbs 230 grain Speer Gold Dot ( standard pressure) Vel. 890 FPS. KE 405 ft. lbs. Is there a difference? Certainly. The question, however, is whether or not this difference is enough to matter. The FBI stated the following: “There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.” They went on to say that they believe 9mm possesses slightly better penetration characteristics. The choice is yours. Choose whatever makes you happy. |
October 2, 2017, 07:16 AM | #31 |
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Chrono averages from my Glocks, the 19 & 30 are similar in height / length
15 rounds in free places vs 10 In restrictive places (mag limits) the 30 would be an easy choice for me. Glock 19: Remington HTP 115 gr. +P @ 1,177 fps / 354# KE Remington 124 gr. +P Golden Saber @ 1,136 fps / 355# KE Federal HST 147 gr +P @ 1,044 fps / 356# KE Federal HST 124 gr. +P @ 1,210 fps / 403# KE Glock 30SF Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. @ 811 fps / 336# KE Federal Hydra-Shok 185 +P @ 1,005 fps / 415# KE Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 903 fps /417# KE Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,008 fps / 418# KE Check out this test for differences in bullet performance: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/
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October 2, 2017, 10:59 AM | #32 |
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Energy doesn't stop an attacker. To stop an attack you can either destroy the central nervous system or cause massive damage to the Cardiod-pulmonary system. There are very few handguns that can do the latter and darn few shooters who can do the former.
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October 2, 2017, 04:10 PM | #33 |
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This is my opinion, as there isn't hard science or evidence on the objective effectiveness of handgun rounds.
I feel energy means essencially nothing for handgun effect except in where it relates to penetration and expansion, as hitting the CNS or blood bearing organs is really all you can do with a pistol. Hydrostatic shock doesn't come into play until you hit rifles. So, look at gel tests (best comparison we have) and decide which pair of penetration and expansion meets your needs when recoil and capacity are factors. In 9mm I favor 124 or 147 grain hollowpoints over 115 grain. In .45 I favor 230 grain. |
October 14, 2017, 10:19 AM | #34 | |
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Quote:
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QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION |
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October 14, 2017, 02:39 PM | #35 | |
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In Newtonian physics, the formula for Energy is 1/2 Mass * Velocity * Velocity, so doubling the mass will double the energy. But, this is an almost purely academic exercise as it would require intentionally downloading the cartridge to keep the velocity of the lighter bullet equal to that of the heavier bullet. |
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October 14, 2017, 03:05 PM | #36 | |
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If you're talking 300 or 400 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, a difference of 20, 30, 40 or even 50 foot-pounds can be ignored for most practical purposes. First, unless you are shooting your victim in the back of their neck execution-style, your victim will be far enough away that the bullet will strike the target with less velocity (and thus much less energy) than when it left the muzzle. Second, the bullet has to remain in the victim for fully deposit all of its energy. If the bullet passes through, then the energy expended in carrying it on its journey after passing through the target was not expended damaging the target. Third, shot placement trumps both mass and energy. If I shoot you in the heart with a 25 ACP, then between tissue damage, loss of blood and disruption of the heart's electrical currents, odds are that you will die almost instantly. If I shoot you through your thigh with a 45 ACP, then if I don't strike a major artery, you will not only probably live, you might not even be taken out of the fight. Bottom line is that anyone who tells you that this one factor or that one factor, be it bullet weight, muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, bullet configuration, etc., is all you need to be concerned with in evaluating a cartridge (for anything other than specialist work) simply doesn't know what they're talking about. Take the time to do your homework and learn the role that each factor in ballistics plays in predicting the performance of a bullet, both in flight and then at the target, so that you have a basis for making an informed decision in how to balance each of the factors when making the decision which cartridge and bullet you are going to use. |
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October 14, 2017, 04:32 PM | #37 |
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I'm in the Taylor KO or more to the momentum camp. So personally, I would vote for a 230 grain FMJ vs. 115 FMJ.
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October 16, 2017, 10:37 AM | #38 |
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I dispatched some coons last night with a .45 using 500 ft-lb loads. But I think the numbers being tossed around in this thread really demonstrate how puny the common defensive rounds are. You want "stopping power"? Then use a mag charge of buckshot at over 2600 ft-lbs, or a .300 winmag at 3850 ft-lbs.
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October 16, 2017, 11:00 AM | #39 | |
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October 16, 2017, 09:57 PM | #40 |
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Shooting someone in the foot would slow them down too.
Either round is adaquate. Which do you shoot better when under pressure? |
October 17, 2017, 01:35 AM | #41 |
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It's all about momentum. 230 grains has 115 grain bullets whipped all to heck in momentum.
Creek Henry, Some cartridges are far more adequate than others. I don't want adequate. I want best for saving my life. |
October 17, 2017, 02:15 AM | #42 | |
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Quote:
Or is .45ACP adequate in your opinion?
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October 17, 2017, 07:37 AM | #43 |
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I like a poly-coated 220gn FP hardcast @ 1200fps/704fpe.
In 10mm AUTO ... It's a high-n-hard 'fight-stopping' load. Last edited by agtman; October 17, 2017 at 07:42 AM. |
October 17, 2017, 12:05 PM | #44 |
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I'd stay with my 17-shot 9mm. 115gr JHP +p from Corbon. 1400 FPS does the job.
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October 18, 2017, 10:27 PM | #45 |
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mix up
The OP has his terminology mixed up. Firepower, as defined in his on follow on posts, and the common understanding of the work, refers to rate and amount of fire. A round to round comparsison of two SINGLE rounds, given the common understanding of the term firepower, is not possible.
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October 19, 2017, 06:38 AM | #46 |
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy
Here's a link with some good info. It shows calculations that will involve velocity and mass of the bullet. Will you get double? No. Most people follow FBI standards when it comes to bullet selection anyways. I'd rather have 17 rounds of 9mm compared to 13 rounds of .45acp(think glock 17 vs 21).
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October 20, 2017, 12:10 PM | #47 | ||
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October 20, 2017, 05:56 PM | #48 | |
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October 21, 2017, 02:09 PM | #49 |
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With a few exceptions, light-n-fluffy has a spotty history of "stopping power." As far as capacity, mo' rounds ain't always better when you can't miss fast enough.
Folks with .45s and 10mms, at least on the 1911-platform, practice that old relic called marksmanship. Historically speaking, the .45 with ball ammo won 3.5 wars, declared or undeclared. The 9-minimeter, during roughly the same period, proved itself useful at executing ethnic minorities, dissidents, POWs, and assorted unfortunates, usually at point-blank range into a road-side ditch. |
October 21, 2017, 02:40 PM | #50 | ||
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1911s made up somewhere around 20% of U.S. fielded small arms during the WWII era. In modern times, comparing the M16/M4 numbers to the M9 numbers indicates that the military purchases 10-15 rifles for every pistol. There are likely some good arguments for the .45ACP over the 9mm, but these two fall flat.
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