Wrinkling 38 special???

[Chainsaw.]

Fiiiiinally got the 586 Ive been after for a good while, loaded up some 357 for it with great success, but now Im loading 38special and getting some weird results. One head stamp in particular "WW" is wrinkling when I seat bullets, some so bad they look like they've spent the last 64 years on the beach in florida with no sun screen. 98% of this issue is with this one head stamp, Id ditch em but they make up 1/3-1/4 of my 38 brass collection.

This is with a 125 grain lee cast & coated bullet. Ive tried sizing the bullet, lubing the bullet going into the case, lubing the case inti the seating die, backing the crimp waaay off to where it pretty much almost doesnt touch the case. Are these cases a lost cause? Whats your experience? Help?

[243winxb]

Load the unsized brass, then crimp.

[Nick_C_S]

I've loaded bunches n bunches of 38 Special over the last 3+ decades. I've never run into such a problem. I've used WW headstamped brass too - mostly nickel plated; not that it would make much difference.

Pictures might be helpful.

I'm also curious how much you're flairing the case.

I'm not a fan of coated bullets because (among other reasons) they tend to "shave" upon seating - regardless of the amount of flair. And I always seat and crimp in separate operations (progressive). This shaving I've experience may be somewhat related to what you're experiencing - although certainly not as extreme. ?? Just a guess.

[snakeye]

I had a recent issue where 38 specials were wrinkling but with 3 or 4 different brand cases. Had loaded them before with no issues but all of a sudden this started happening. I ended up opening the flair more and it finally stopped.

[condor bravo]

Some W-W cases have a cannelure and I recall that wrinkling, or collapsing, can happen during bullet seating if the bullet seats within that area. In a fairly recent post it was pointed out that some cases, don't recall which, have a step that stops the bullet seating at a certain depth. Trying to seat beyond the step could result in a collapsed case.

[F. Guffey]

I had a recent issue where 38 specials were wrinkling but with 3 or 4 different brand cases. Had loaded them before with no issues but all of a sudden this started happening. I ended up opening the flair more and it finally stopped.

WW, that WW is one of my favorite brand of cases, The only time I have wrinkled a case is when seating a bullet. The seating die does not have case body support so when a reloader messes up the case can wad up beneath the bullet when seating.

When trying to move the shoulder back on a bottle neck case (like all other reloaders ) I found it was impossible to do with a die that had case body support. SO I configured a die to push the shoulder back without case body support; guess what? I move the shoulder back as in I shortend the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head but there was a problem; withoug case body support the body of the case was turned in to an accordion or a case with bellows.

F. Guffey

[NoSecondBest]

After fifty years of loading the 357 and 38spl I've had a few, very few, cases do what you describe. It's from lack or flairing the case mouth enough. I've used mostly WW brass over the year and never had any problem with it. I'd suggest ditching the coated bullets as well. I've tried them and I've never gotten great accuracy out of them. As stated above, they tend to shave upon seating and if you measure the diameter at the base of the bullet they are either undersized or have a lot of variation. I don't know why that is, but I do know it effects accuracy.

[Chainsaw.]

Nick, Id have pics up but its such a pain with this site. Ill try backing out the crimp all the way to see if that helps.

Only flaring enough to get the bullets started. You are right in that coated bullets can get a little shavey but Im having decent success up to this point, especially in 44 and 357.

About the canelure, these do have it but its half way down the case, no where near where the base of the bullet stops. Shouldn't be an issue short of weakening the case wall in the effect of that downward pressure of seating.

[Salmoneye]

This site is like most others...

Host the pic somewhere, and copy the URL to the popup box when you click the 'picture' icon above the text box...

This is the picture hosting site I use most these days:

https://postimages.org/

[Nick_C_S]

Only flaring enough to get the bullets started.

Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom when it comes to flaring cases.

I however, do not subscribe to it. I flair generously. I'm too old to fight with seating bullets atop the case mouth. If I can't drop them onto the mouth with ease, then I don't have enough flair. (The bullet will sit about 1/32nd-ish into the mouth, with a noticeable gap between the mouth and the bullet.) After doing this for the last half-decade (and I load/shoot a lot), the concern of overworking the brass seems to be unfounded.

Just the way one guy does it. (Does not apply to rifle cartridges.)

I don't know if flaring more will solve your problem, but I believe it's worth a try.

[reddog81]

I've wrinkled a couple of cases before.

I always figured it was due to sloppy seating of the bullet. The bullet should slip into the case. If the bullet is not aligned correctly you are smashing the bullet into the case. Sometimes when smashing the bullet into the case the case fights back and gets wrinkled in the process.

Excessive crimping can cause this also. A moderate crimp into the crimp groove won't hurt anything but if you try and jam the lip of the case past the cannelure or crimp goove it can put to much pressure on the case and cause some distortion.

[FrankenMauser]

My guess(es) would be:

1. You're not flaring enough.
2. You're crimping while seating.

Solutions:
0. Don't do that.
1. You need at least twenty pieces of flare.
2. Crimp separately.

[Nick_C_S]

You need at least twenty pieces of flare.

!!

[Chainsaw.]

Nick. Hmm.....might be worth a shot....

Reddog. I do try to get bullets as staight as possible into the case as its going up into the die but to no avail. And I am crimping onto a bullet with no canelure, maybe an issue. We'll see if that changes when I get the crimp backed off.

Frank, #1, maybe, but not enough to shave/catch the case edge.
#2 guilty as charged, again Ill try one step at a time.

[condor bravo]

Frank:
What are 20 pieces of flare??

[T. O'Heir]

"...Only flaring enough to get the bullets started..." Only enough so the bullet will sit in the case unaided.
Can't imagine how a case head would ever get 'wrinkled'. If you mean the side of the case mouth is getting damaged, that's not enough flare. If it's the case is getting pushed down, the die or the seater plug is not set up correctly.

[F. Guffey]

If it's the case is getting pushed down, the die or the seater plug is not set up correctly.

The seating die does not have case body support; my cases do not have tension, my cases have bullet hold. When it comes to bullet hold I want all the hold I can get, when seating a bullet the bullets acts like an expander, there are times my cases take on the appearance of a snake that swallowed something. The only time that bothers me is when I load 45 ACP rounds for one of my builds. It likes new, over the counter, factory loaded ammo so if my reloades do not look factory loaded it is a bad day at the range.

Even then there is the die that has case body support, I use the full length carbide sizer die to remove the bullet line. I do not full length size the case, I only size enough of the case to make the case look straight.

F. Guffey

[FrankenMauser]

Frank:
What are 20 pieces of flare??

A facetious misspelling of flair, with a pop culture reference. (NSFW)

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Chainsaw.

Reddog. I do try to get bullets as staight as possible into the case as its going up into the die but to no avail. And I am crimping onto a bullet with no canelure, maybe an issue. We'll see if that changes when I get the crimp backed off.

What Lee bullet are you loading with no crimp groove? If the bullet has no crimp groove the most you can do remove the flair and get a smidgen of crimp. Any variation in case length can cause issues.

[DaleA]

20 pieces of flair.
Thank you condor bravo for asking and thank you FrankenMauser for the video and including the 'not suitable for workplace' warning.

[Nathan]

I think you've seen the answer here.

First, eliminate crimping and see if it stops.

If still ng, flare more. Basically, cases should be flared until they accept the bullet when you "stick" it in their pretty straight by hand.

Add crimping back, if unrelated...although setting up crimp in a separate die is generally worthwhile.

[Zorro]

Weak cases, throw out and trim .357 Magnum Brass.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by reddog81

Excessive crimping can cause this also. A moderate crimp into the crimp groove won't hurt anything but if you try and jam the lip of the case past the cannelure or crimp goove it can put to much pressure on the case and cause some distortion.

Many times when one is reloading mixed headstamp brass, not only is the headstamp different, but so is the OAL of the case itself. If the crimp die has been adjusted to correctly crimp a case of shorter OAL, one can "wrinkle" or what I call "buckle" a case that is of a longer OAL when it is crimped. One reason I generally sort brass by headstamp or case OAL.

[Chainsaw.]

Thats something I never thought of Buck. Ill get the calipers out next time I get a chance tp sit at the bench.

[Unclenick]

Buck's point brings you to the only reason that exists for trimming low pressure handgun ammunition. It doesn't grow like rifle cases because the pressure doesn't stick the brass to the chamber walls (just starts to happen at a little over 30,000 psi peak values, with some variation for powder type). But getting even crimps without adjusting a conventional crimp die does benefit from uniform trimming.

If the flare issue persists, get either a Lyman M die or, if you need a powder-through die, the Lyman Multi-expander (which comes with inserts for all common handgun calibers). These dies put a small step in the case mouth just below the belling of the flare that the bullet sets squarely into. This not only minimizes the amount of flare required (increasing brass life) but when you examine the slight bulge in the finished cartridge's case over top of the bottom edge of the seated bullet's base, you will find these more even all around the case because the bullet was started in straight and couldn't cock over to an angle during seating. This works with jacketed bullets, too, btw, and for this reason the Lyman M dies for rifle cartridges are seeing increased use by people loading precision rifle ammunition for that reason, even though mouth expanding is not historically done with jacketed rifle bullets. Using an M die and an RCBS standard seating die will get you very concentric rifle rounds as long as the case neck wasn't tilted by pulling too hard over a sizing die expander.

The other thing you can do to get around trimming is to use a Lee Collet Style crimp die for .38 Special. These apply a compressed ring crimp rather than a roll crimp or a taper crimp, same as you see on some military and commercial rifle ammunition. The die can actually form its own crimp groove into a bullet that doesn't have one. Since the crimp is applied from around the outside of the case mouth and not by pressing on the end of the mouth, the exact length of the case is not as critical as with a roll or taper crimp.

Note that despite being less length-critical, the collet type crimp dies do have a limit to the range of case lengths they can work with, so they are different for .38 Special and .357 Magnum. It's a one-cartridge die design.

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