Fast & Furious scandal coverup truth exposed by court order

[Armybrat]

We all know the administration & Eric Holder lied about the F&F fiasco, but it looks like the ugly truth is now out. I wonder if the MSM will give this any decent coverage besides paying it lip service then burying it again?

I don't know the detailed forum rules on posting media quotes here, so you'll have to click on the Post link yourself:

http://nypost.com/2016/05/21/the-sca...talking-about/

Moderators: If this is in the wrong forum, please move it.

[g.willikers]

Thanks for the news.
About time, isn't it?

[kilimanjaro]

When this is printed in the NY Times, instead of the Post, it will be big news.

[g.willikers]

And when it's the headline in the local papers.
But it all helps, though.

[Tom Servo]

It's just too late.

If they truly wanted justice, Issa and Grassley should have squeezed the SAC's at the Phoenix field division. The agents who planned and executed the operation (and for which there was plenty of proof) should have been prosecuted. That didn't happen.

If they wanted the truth, they might have offered immunity deals or reduced sentences for those who had something to reveal. That didn't happen.

Why? Because they wanted to play politics. They got it into their heads that they could be the next Woodward and Bernstein, run the matter straight to the Oval Office, and stick it to the President. That didn't happen.

What we were left with reeked of pure politics and looked to the general public like a partisan witch hunt. Sure, the Attorney General was held in contempt, but it quickly became apparent that carried no real consequences.

So, nobody really paid for it. The agents involved got transferred to other divisions, but nobody got so much as a pay cut. Sure, Melson stepped down, but that struck me as more of a "I'm really sorry I took this post in the first place--this agency bites" thing.

And now? I don't think we'll have much hope getting the public interested. The outrage meter is currently being boosted by a Presidential race that is either comedic or tragic, but it gets the hackles up. An old case about the ATF and an Attorney General who isn't even in office won't cut through the noise.

It stinks and I hate it, but it looks like everyone involved is getting away with it.

[HiBC]

IMO,a powerful first step in cleaning up this nation would be to insist on accountability and justice.
That may require a change in administration.
It may need to wait till an AG will take it on,and it may need to be beyond a Presidential pardon.
A sitting administration is not going to embarrass itself,or worse.
I would like to see a new tradition of retroactive accountability.

I understand "We have enough problems in the present and future to not focus on the past" and the quid pro quo aspect of "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

I think its long past time that 535 + 1 are reminded in harsh fashion that Truth can be delayed,sidestepped,and covered up,but in time,it usually shows up.
The loss of trust and credibility has lead us to an apathetic acceptance "They all do it" that is destroying this nation.Its time to raise the bar.We tolerate too much.

If you can't do the time,don't do the crime.

I'd really like to see a new tradition of post election exposure and prosecution .

And in some cases,impeachment.

To which some will reply "It will never happen"
You may be right.But your voice is part of the acceptance that is one key element of the problem.

[thallub]

We all know the administration & Eric Holder lied about the F&F fiasco,

And you know this because of what? Where is the proof?

The so called congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious was an election year extravaganza. Grassley and Issa conducted a witch hunt trying to make something stick to Holder and Obama. Neither Grassely or Issa ever called for the re-organization of the BATFE.

It matters not what is in the documents: It's much too late.

[rwilson452]

I saw a news piece today that indicated the order for F&F came from a deputy director under Holder. Discovered in some Emails. Also in the emails were instructions to delay and resist the congressional investigation as much as possible.

[JimPage]

It matters not what is in the documents: It's much too late

.

It's never too late if we had an AG with integrity. We often prosecute criminals many years after the crime. But the tradition of not prosecuting those who are no longer in office because "we would be criminalizing politics" is absurd. We need integrity of the law and those charged with enforcing it. The good old boys excuse is not valid.

[TXAZ]

Jim Page noted

"we would be criminalizing politics"

Maybe we should. Criminalizing lying, cheating and stealing as a public servant would run the (bad guys) out. But you'd have to have alternative channels for prosecution that government employees can't touch or block.

[JimPage]

Well, if you criminalize lying, you will criminalize all politicians

[Pond, James Pond]

Surely there is a case for negligence here.

They screwed up an op and innocents died. Why is the prosecutors office not paying this some attention.

A civil action by the family of that State Trooper would catch some headlines too...

[Tom Servo]

I saw a news piece today that indicated the order for F&F came from a deputy director under Holder.

Holder doesn't get that excuse. This was an Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Forces (OCDETF) operation. OCDETF ops are multiagency affairs, and they're granted a very wide latitude on things like distribution of contraband and wiretaps. Because of their sensitive and potentially dangerous nature, the DOJ only runs a few of those at the time.

OCDETF ops are to law enforcement what Michael Bay $300 million summer blockbusters are to the movie studios. They are watched very closely, and it's inconceivable that Holder wasn't receiving weekly briefings on F&F.

That leaves us with two possibilities. The first is that he knew and was complicit, in which case he should be held criminally liable. The second (and the claim he made himself) is that he was so utterly apathetic and incompetent that he never paid attention to the briefings.

They screwed up an op and innocents died. Why is the prosecutors office not paying this some attention.

First off, who directs the prosecutors? The Department of Justice. Yeah.

Dennis Burke was US Attorney for the state of Arizona, and he not only declined to prosecute, he leaked derogatory information in an effort to discredit an ATF whistleblower involved with the operation. He was persuaded to step down when that came to light, but was never prosecuted.

This whole thing was dirty from the bottom up. The problem is, instead of a prosecution, we got politics.

A civil action by the family of that State Trooper would catch some headlines too...

It was actually a Border Patrol officer named Bryan Terry. His family has done everything possible to bring justice in this case. They've received a great deal of help. The problem is, the whole thing got shut down by the President, the public never cared all that much, and now the issue gets drowned out by heated election rhetoric.

One political party will never, ever want it mentioned. The other just doesn't see the point of mentioning.

[Pond, James Pond]

First off, who directs the prosecutors? The Department of Justice. Yeah.

Hideous conflict of interest. That cannot be right...
It's cases like this that show up the weaknesses in the system.

One political party will never, ever want it mentioned. The other just doesn't see the point of mentioning.

While I don't particularly like the whole side of politics that centres around discrediting the other side, I can't believe that the GOP haven't jumped on something like this that would make the Democrats look bad.

[Tom Servo]

I can't believe that the GOP haven't jumped on something like this that would make the Democrats look bad.

I gave the narrative in post #5. The problem was that all the GOP wanted was to make this politics, and justice fell through the cracks.

[Pond, James Pond]

The problem was that all the GOP wanted was to make this politics, and justice fell through the cracks.

So..... we have:

Political point-scoring rather than serving the public interest by the opposition party.

Chasing editorial agendas rather than reporting the public interest by the media.

And CYA by the Justice Dept rather than delivering, well, justice and rule of law in the public interest.

Not really ideal.

[Tom Servo]

Not really ideal.

That, my friend, is a masterpiece of understatement. But yes, you're correct.

[Pond, James Pond]

If my shooting skills were on par with those of my understatement, I'd have most IPSC matches in the bag!!



Whichever way you cut it, it's serious corruption. It seems even the countries that are supposed to be the standard bearers of democratic rule of law aren't immune...

These things always make me wonder in which other ways have we, regular people, had the wool pulled over our eyes.

[44 AMP]

So..... we have:

Political point-scoring rather than serving the public interest by the opposition party.

Chasing editorial agendas rather than reporting the public interest by the media.

And CYA by the Justice Dept rather than delivering, well, justice and rule of law in the public interest

Yes, and it has been going on for a long time. A VERY long time. And, yes, they "ALL" do it. Both sides do it, all that seems to differ is the degree of scandal (at the time), and how those who are actually responsible behave about it.

The underlying principle has always been "the Captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship", whether he knows about it, OR NOT (at the time) he is STILL responsible.

Traditionally, when something like this gets "proven" in the court of public opinion, (and it looks like it WILL be proven in a court of law), someone at high level "falls on their sword", they publically take responsibility, and resign from public office. For good. And, because they do that, we, as a people, accept that and let them go. Generally WITHOUT any criminal prosecution.

In recent decades, those in power have NOT lived up to this standard. They deny responsibility, until and unless it IS proved in a court of law (a process they can influence), OR they admit responsibility, and then continue with business as usual, without anyone resigning, as if it never happened.

Those in power scored a win, by keeping the matter out of the mainstream public eye long enough for it to no longer matter, to them.

And that seems to be all they truly care about, their own personal, and political power and prestige. Any (and perhaps every) one else's life, or death, is just grist for that mill.

These kinds of things aren't supposed to happen in America, we get taught this in childhood, or we used to be taught it, as one of the things that were "right" about our country and our system. Sadly most of us, as we grow up, get shown by the real world how much of an idealistic lie that really is.

Now that it is way past the point where it could matter, they will let the truth come out.

its over, its done, nothing to see here folks, move along..!!

[thallub]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that Fast and Furious was designed and run by career bureaucrats of the BATFE. Two gunrunning operations were run by those same bureaucrats. The operations differed only in in scale: Both operations ran untraced guns into Mexico. Operation Wide Receiver was, in fact, the pilot program for Operation Fast and Furious.

[HiBC]

"Was,in fact,a pilot program""

I do not think so.
Wide Receiver was done with the knowledge and consent of Mexico.Not so with F+F.
My understanding,(no,I cannot source it.)the Wide Receiver guns had tracking devices installed.The point was to follow the guns to the cartels.
Unfortunately,information leaked,the gunrunners removed the tracking devices,the operation was a fail.
But apprehending cartel criminals was the motive.

F+F was done without the consent or knowledge of Mexico.No tracking devices were installed in the weapons.
The point of F+F ? Those guns needed to be traceable to a USA firearm dealer.
Those guns needed to slaughter people in Mexico(collateral damage)
Those guns needed to create an international incident."American gun dealers source of weapons slaughtering innocent Mexican people"
(Zoom in camera for tears and emotion)
The international outrage was to be the crisis to attack and destroy the 2nd Amendment.

It was an "Ends justify the means" maneuver that has killed hundreds of innocent Mexican people,along with Brian Terry.

F+F was a calculated waste of human life to further a political ambition.

All to shut down USA gun shops.

All of the players in that scheme need to be held accountable for every life lost.
and for betrayal of the oath to "Uphold ,defend,and protect the Constitution"

Wide Receiver and F+F are quite different.
The lame attempt to play moral equivalency and shift blame from current administration to previous administration is typical,predictable,and .....for the Mods,I'll stop there.

[thallub]

The lame attempt to play moral equivalency and shift blame from current administration to previous administration is typical,predictable,and .....for the Mods,I'll stop there.

1. i'm not attempting to "play moral equivalency" or trying to "shift blame" from any administration. Facts are facts and you are ranting.

2. The same career bureaucrats who designed and ran Fast and Furious previously designed and ran Wide Receiver

3. Contrary to popular myth; few, if any, Wide Receiver guns were tracked. After Wide Receiver came to light Issa perpetuated this lame claim: He was proven wrong.

4. Contrary to popular myth started by Ed Morrissey there is no proof that the Mexican government was ever informed of Wide Receiver.

5. The US House "investigation" into Operation Fast and Furious was a political ploy in an election year. There never was any attempt to reform the BATFE.

6. In order to understand what really happened, especially in Wide Receiver, one needs to read the OIG report and the US House minority report.

[Armybrat]

Yes, you are coming back with the "everybody does it" just like Hillary has tried to do with her email scandal.

What facts we do know for certain are the untruthfulness of the AG in his first testimony, and that some of the untracked guns wound up being used to killed a number of Mexican nationals and one US government agent. Not to mention what the purpose was - to gin up antigun hysteria in the political arena.

And of course the republicans are going to make political hay about it.

[JimPage]

The integrity of our elected and appointed officials is the major point of the dismay of the people. I fail to see how that lever of integrity can be dismissed.

[Tom Servo]

Yes, you are coming back with the "everybody does it" just like Hillary has tried to do with her email scandal.

We don't want to go off-track with the email thing, but you bring up a very good point. The first strategy in both cases was denial. When that fails, claim ignorance or lack of awareness. When that fails, claim "everybody does it." When that fails, hope the media finds something else to focus on until the political winds change and people forget.

Clinton is currently in Stage 4, as is Holder.

The most galling thing was watching him tell Congress that he wasn't even aware of F&F until "May or so" of 2011. That always struck me as odd, because the President was on Telemundo placating journalists about the issue the prior January. Are we to believe at no point that the President called the AG and said, "hey, figure out what's going on here?"