approaching max charge??

axis223 · May 8, 2016, 02:22 PM

loading 223rem 55gr v max. h335, cci450-mag primers.

some say i can go as high as hodgdon which maxes at 25.3 but hornady maxes at 23.2.

I started loading up to 22.6 today nd was wondering how to work up when approaching max? should i start the next loads at .1gr?

**Unclenick** · May 8, 2016, 02:29 PM

A general rule of thumb is when you work up only for pressure, work up in steps no greater than 2% of the maximum charge. When you work up for accuracy, avoid steps greater than 0.7% of maximum charge or 0.2 grains, whichever is larger.

Clark · May 9, 2016, 09:46 AM

This is me working up H335 55 gr Vmax with CCI 400 primers, one grain at a time.

Extractor groove expansion started between #3 and #4.

axis223 · May 9, 2016, 10:31 AM

Holly crap!

who's data are you using?

I went all the way up to 22.8 last night and no signs. I think 23.4 is max per Hornady manual.

RC20 · May 9, 2016, 09:05 PM

Also its been suggestion taking a shell holder with you.

If it gets sticky into the holder its gone too far.

Not from me but from Accurate Shooters as I recall.

Other may have proven its way too far, unknown but good to use all the tool you can.

Clark · May 10, 2016, 01:19 AM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
In working up in strong rifles, often the practical limit is brass life.
Loose primer pockets are not found at some repeatable threshold of one firing.
The first measurable increase with dial calipers with a 180 degree spin in extractor groove is a repeatable and fairly exact threshold. This is well below any loose primer pockets with one shot. Vernon Speer in 1956 writing about how to write a load book said to back off 6% from any change in the brass. In some cartridges with temperature stable powder, I have backed off as little as 3% for my personal use. That would be in 7mmRM with H4350 I backed off 2 grains from 72 to 70 and have used that load in many rifles I built and factory to kill many animals.

H335 is not as temp stable, and in a 223 if I found an extractor groove expansion threshold at 30 gr, I would back off the full Vernon Speer 6% safety margin to 28 gr as my usable max load for bolt actions and single shots. My non adjustable gas semi auto guns have addition constraints.

Six Pack · May 10, 2016, 01:55 AM

Hodgdon uses a lot of Winchester brass which has higher internal capacity. If you are not using the same brass, your max charge will likely be noticeably less. In my experience, Remington, Lapua, Norma, and Nosler brass have less capacity and will generally max out with less powder. Probably anywhere from 1 to 3-4 grains less. Just a thought.....check your brass against the loading data.

axis223 · May 10, 2016, 07:22 AM

I'm using Remington brass as of now. I used to save all my 223 brass and had a lot of Hornady and Win but it seems to have disappeared over the years.

I have 500 LC once fired coming in a week or so.

Nathan · May 10, 2016, 09:05 AM

To many assumptions here. I will load any load i find in a manual. I then confirm them low to high by looking at accuracy, velocity, case condition and primer reading.

That does mean shooting them.

axis223 · May 10, 2016, 09:41 AM

Nathan

I have been shooting them and the higher in charge I go the tighter the groups got. I was approaching max in hornady manual and didn't want to go higher without asking.

T. O'Heir · May 10, 2016, 01:54 PM

All manuals, including Hodgdon's site, reflect the conditions on the day of the test using the exact components indicated. The bullet weight in the important pat, not the brand or the construction.
Hodgdon's 25.3 Max for a 55 grain bullet at 3,203 fps Max, will not bother your rifle. Hornady factory 55 grain V-Max ammo runs hotter than that. MV is 3240 fps.
"...start the next loads at .1gr?..." Begin with the Start load and go up by half a grain to the Max load.

Nathan · May 10, 2016, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Nathan

I have been shooting them and the higher in charge I go the tighter the groups got. I was approaching max in hornady manual and didn't want to go higher without asking.

In my experience, this is the way it works. At or above max listed load, accuracy usually starts to get worse. You will see this clearly using the OCW method.

FYI, OCW is the method usually used for best accuracy at a given distance. Ladder loads are best for finding the ideal pressure node...

Metal god · May 10, 2016, 11:05 PM

I'll admit that I was one of the guys saying 25gr is GTG or better yet good to approach slowly . After looking at Hodgdon and my Lyman 49th that has the 60gr V-max at 25.8gr max charge and the fact I shoot two loads at 25 and 25.5gr ( though AR's )

I'm going to keep with my statement that working up to the 25gr charge looking for pressure sings as you go should not be a problem . In situations where I'm not completely confident in the charges I'm about to approach . My load work up will be something like .5gr increments to the point the confidences starts to lessen . At that point I'll drop to .3gr and continue to max in the .3 increments .

So It would look something like this , 5 shots each

22.5
23
23.5
24
24.3
24.6
24.9
25.2

tangolima · May 10, 2016, 11:21 PM

You are the only one who is doing the actual loading and shooting. The rest are just talking. You should be the one to decide what step to take and when to stop. If you feel the fear, perhaps you should stop earlier.

-TL

Metal god · May 11, 2016, 01:18 AM

You know I keep forgetting you are shooting a 223 chamber AND you are using magnum primers . IMO the Magnum primers are not needed in a small case like the 223 but that's me . I see you get better groups using the magnum primers but that could be as simple as the magnums are giving that little extra pressure as if you are loading .5gr or 1gr more of charge weight .

Did you ever find your MAX COAL with the 55gr V-max ??? The fact you have a 223 chamber and use magnum primers . "IF" you proceed up past 24gr I'd want to be sure your seating depth is not close to the lands . At least .020 off but .040 would give me a little more comfort . I'd also consider going back to the CCI #400 if you're going to push past 24gr .

I did some testing of the exact same load work up . one set of loads using the #400 and a duplicate set of loads using #450 . Although the average velocities were about the same . I found the #450 had a larger ES/SD on the whole then the #400 did . Keep in mind this test was using an AR with a 5.56 chamber .

I have the notes somewhere . If you'd like I can dig them out and post them . Off hand I'm pretty sure the tests were conducted using 55gr FMJ-BT bullets and H335 .

EDIT :

I just found the data and the #400 grouped by far better then the #450 . Almost comically better . I have all the data including the targets if anyone wants to see .

axis223 · May 12, 2016, 07:50 AM

well I'm in deep with 1k cci-450 primers so I guess ill have to load work up with them and see.

I have about 200 cci-400 too so I can also use them.

old roper · May 12, 2016, 09:24 AM

axis223, One of the helpful tools is a chronograph and no question you can load without one.

axis223 · May 12, 2016, 10:24 AM

its on the way come Friday. just waiting for some extra cash cause I have to get rust on my truck fixed first but woodchuck seasons coming and I need some booolits!

going with the Caldwell chronograph.

Clark · May 13, 2016, 09:35 AM

I dunno what the chono will do for work up max.
I have had 223 case heads happy at 4100 fps and huge primer pocket inside diameter increase at 4200 fps.

The brass is the weak link. Not monitoring the brass is analogous to taking leave of your senses.

Metal god · May 13, 2016, 11:13 AM

Clark :

I consider the chrono just another helpful piece of information to add with other info . We all know not to take one sign as being the answer . The more info you have the more accurate your conclusions "should" be

I have found a chrono helpful on more then one occasion telling me I might want to stop and look harder for other pressure signs. This was do to my velocities being much higher then they should be for a given load . On one occasion it ended up helping me see I was at or likely past max pressure . Other times it has showed I needed to change the battery

I understand there not the be all end all of signs but I do believe they can be a helpful tool for the reloader .

Case in point

These are the cases from the CCI #400 pimer test using 55gr FMJ-BT and H335

Cases on the right had a charge weight of 26gr of H335 pushing that 55gr bullet 3130fps from a 16" 1-7 barrel . The cases look good , primers not to flat but my velocity was telling me along with the charge . I was likely approaching pressures I'd better not go over . In these specific tests the 26gr charge was the largest charge I had so I never went higher that day or any day there after because of the velocities I was getting . Well that and my best group was 25gr

Another time
I have not been back to confirm this . How ever I "believe" my chrono the other day showed that my seating depth was not consistent with a 308 load . I was testing a new load and I had seated these specific bullets what I believed to be right at the lands . They should have been just touching them . While shooting over my chrono I had the worst ES/SD I'd ever had with an ES of 125fps . I was specifically testing seating depths that day and all other loads had a consistent ES/SD except the load that was supposed to be touching the lands . My thoughts right now on that is that the seating depth was not all that consistent as far as if the bullet was "in" the lands , "on" the lands , or "off" the lands . My thinking is some bullets may have been a little in the lands while others were just off the lands . Resulting in erratic velocities ??? what do you think ? I'm not sure what the issue was seeing how all the other loads were consistent , pressure seemed fine .

m&p45acp10+1 · May 13, 2016, 11:23 AM

I have been using 25.0 grains with VMax bullets for years. Great accuracy in every rifle I have shot them out of so far.

Metal god · May 14, 2016, 01:00 PM

Waiting for your update

I'm assuming you took some new loads out today to shoot over your new chrono

axis223 · May 14, 2016, 08:02 PM

chrono will have to wait until next payday. I am having severe paint peeling issues with my 6yo truck and have to cram every penny away to get the surface rust and paint redone.

I would have gotten it today but my lee hand primer decided to break last night and it was barrowed from a buddy so I had to replace both his and buy mine as well and picked up a lee auto drum because I finally found it at the store instead of paying shipping cost. all together that took my $100 for the chronograph

I try and limit how much I spend on reloading/fun each payday so I don't cut myself short. payday was Friday and no more fun for 2 weeks.

May 8, 2016, 02:22 PM	#1
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	approaching max charge?? loading 223rem 55gr v max. h335, cci450-mag primers. some say i can go as high as hodgdon which maxes at 25.3 but hornady maxes at 23.2. I started loading up to 22.6 today nd was wondering how to work up when approaching max? should i start the next loads at .1gr?

May 8, 2016, 02:29 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	A general rule of thumb is when you work up only for pressure, work up in steps no greater than 2% of the maximum charge. When you work up for accuracy, avoid steps greater than 0.7% of maximum charge or 0.2 grains, whichever is larger. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 10, 2016, 01:19 AM	#6
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. In working up in strong rifles, often the practical limit is brass life. Loose primer pockets are not found at some repeatable threshold of one firing. The first measurable increase with dial calipers with a 180 degree spin in extractor groove is a repeatable and fairly exact threshold. This is well below any loose primer pockets with one shot. Vernon Speer in 1956 writing about how to write a load book said to back off 6% from any change in the brass. In some cartridges with temperature stable powder, I have backed off as little as 3% for my personal use. That would be in 7mmRM with H4350 I backed off 2 grains from 72 to 70 and have used that load in many rifles I built and factory to kill many animals. H335 is not as temp stable, and in a 223 if I found an extractor groove expansion threshold at 30 gr, I would back off the full Vernon Speer 6% safety margin to 28 gr as my usable max load for bolt actions and single shots. My non adjustable gas semi auto guns have addition constraints. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

May 10, 2016, 01:54 PM	#11
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	All manuals, including Hodgdon's site, reflect the conditions on the day of the test using the exact components indicated. The bullet weight in the important pat, not the brand or the construction. Hodgdon's 25.3 Max for a 55 grain bullet at 3,203 fps Max, will not bother your rifle. Hornady factory 55 grain V-Max ammo runs hotter than that. MV is 3240 fps. "...start the next loads at .1gr?..." Begin with the Start load and go up by half a grain to the Max load. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 10, 2016, 11:05 PM	#13
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	I'll admit that I was one of the guys saying 25gr is GTG or better yet good to approach slowly . After looking at Hodgdon and my Lyman 49th that has the 60gr V-max at 25.8gr max charge and the fact I shoot two loads at 25 and 25.5gr ( though AR's ) I'm going to keep with my statement that working up to the 25gr charge looking for pressure sings as you go should not be a problem . In situations where I'm not completely confident in the charges I'm about to approach . My load work up will be something like .5gr increments to the point the confidences starts to lessen . At that point I'll drop to .3gr and continue to max in the .3 increments . So It would look something like this , 5 shots each 22.5 23 23.5 24 24.3 24.6 24.9 25.2 __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

May 9, 2016, 09:46 AM	#3
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	This is me working up H335 55 gr Vmax with CCI 400 primers, one grain at a time. Extractor groove expansion started between #3 and #4. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

May 9, 2016, 10:31 AM	#4
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	Holly crap! who's data are you using? I went all the way up to 22.8 last night and no signs. I think 23.4 is max per Hornady manual.

May 9, 2016, 09:05 PM	#5
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Also its been suggestion taking a shell holder with you. If it gets sticky into the holder its gone too far. Not from me but from Accurate Shooters as I recall. Other may have proven its way too far, unknown but good to use all the tool you can.

May 10, 2016, 01:55 AM	#7
Six Pack Member Join Date: May 7, 2016 Posts: 37	Hodgdon uses a lot of Winchester brass which has higher internal capacity. If you are not using the same brass, your max charge will likely be noticeably less. In my experience, Remington, Lapua, Norma, and Nosler brass have less capacity and will generally max out with less powder. Probably anywhere from 1 to 3-4 grains less. Just a thought.....check your brass against the loading data.

May 10, 2016, 07:22 AM	#8
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	I'm using Remington brass as of now. I used to save all my 223 brass and had a lot of Hornady and Win but it seems to have disappeared over the years. I have 500 LC once fired coming in a week or so.

May 10, 2016, 09:05 AM	#9
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	To many assumptions here. I will load any load i find in a manual. I then confirm them low to high by looking at accuracy, velocity, case condition and primer reading. That does mean shooting them.

May 10, 2016, 09:41 AM	#10
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	Nathan I have been shooting them and the higher in charge I go the tighter the groups got. I was approaching max in hornady manual and didn't want to go higher without asking.

May 10, 2016, 11:21 PM	#14
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,824	You are the only one who is doing the actual loading and shooting. The rest are just talking. You should be the one to decide what step to take and when to stop. If you feel the fear, perhaps you should stop earlier. -TL

May 11, 2016, 01:18 AM	#15
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	You know I keep forgetting you are shooting a 223 chamber AND you are using magnum primers . IMO the Magnum primers are not needed in a small case like the 223 but that's me . I see you get better groups using the magnum primers but that could be as simple as the magnums are giving that little extra pressure as if you are loading .5gr or 1gr more of charge weight . Did you ever find your MAX COAL with the 55gr V-max ??? The fact you have a 223 chamber and use magnum primers . "IF" you proceed up past 24gr I'd want to be sure your seating depth is not close to the lands . At least .020 off but .040 would give me a little more comfort . I'd also consider going back to the CCI #400 if you're going to push past 24gr . I did some testing of the exact same load work up . one set of loads using the #400 and a duplicate set of loads using #450 . Although the average velocities were about the same . I found the #450 had a larger ES/SD on the whole then the #400 did . Keep in mind this test was using an AR with a 5.56 chamber . I have the notes somewhere . If you'd like I can dig them out and post them . Off hand I'm pretty sure the tests were conducted using 55gr FMJ-BT bullets and H335 . EDIT : I just found the data and the #400 grouped by far better then the #450 . Almost comically better . I have all the data including the targets if anyone wants to see . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; May 11, 2016 at 01:33 AM.

May 12, 2016, 07:50 AM	#16
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	well I'm in deep with 1k cci-450 primers so I guess ill have to load work up with them and see. I have about 200 cci-400 too so I can also use them.

May 12, 2016, 09:24 AM	#17
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	axis223, One of the helpful tools is a chronograph and no question you can load without one. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

May 12, 2016, 10:24 AM	#18
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	its on the way come Friday. just waiting for some extra cash cause I have to get rust on my truck fixed first but woodchuck seasons coming and I need some booolits! going with the Caldwell chronograph.

May 13, 2016, 09:35 AM	#19
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I dunno what the chono will do for work up max. I have had 223 case heads happy at 4100 fps and huge primer pocket inside diameter increase at 4200 fps. The brass is the weak link. Not monitoring the brass is analogous to taking leave of your senses. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

May 13, 2016, 11:13 AM	#20
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Clark : I consider the chrono just another helpful piece of information to add with other info . We all know not to take one sign as being the answer . The more info you have the more accurate your conclusions "should" be I have found a chrono helpful on more then one occasion telling me I might want to stop and look harder for other pressure signs. This was do to my velocities being much higher then they should be for a given load . On one occasion it ended up helping me see I was at or likely past max pressure . Other times it has showed I needed to change the battery I understand there not the be all end all of signs but I do believe they can be a helpful tool for the reloader . Case in point These are the cases from the CCI #400 pimer test using 55gr FMJ-BT and H335 Cases on the right had a charge weight of 26gr of H335 pushing that 55gr bullet 3130fps from a 16" 1-7 barrel . The cases look good , primers not to flat but my velocity was telling me along with the charge . I was likely approaching pressures I'd better not go over . In these specific tests the 26gr charge was the largest charge I had so I never went higher that day or any day there after because of the velocities I was getting . Well that and my best group was 25gr Another time I have not been back to confirm this . How ever I "believe" my chrono the other day showed that my seating depth was not consistent with a 308 load . I was testing a new load and I had seated these specific bullets what I believed to be right at the lands . They should have been just touching them . While shooting over my chrono I had the worst ES/SD I'd ever had with an ES of 125fps . I was specifically testing seating depths that day and all other loads had a consistent ES/SD except the load that was supposed to be touching the lands . My thoughts right now on that is that the seating depth was not all that consistent as far as if the bullet was "in" the lands , "on" the lands , or "off" the lands . My thinking is some bullets may have been a little in the lands while others were just off the lands . Resulting in erratic velocities ??? what do you think ? I'm not sure what the issue was seeing how all the other loads were consistent , pressure seemed fine . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; May 13, 2016 at 12:59 PM.

May 13, 2016, 11:23 AM	#21
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I have been using 25.0 grains with VMax bullets for years. Great accuracy in every rifle I have shot them out of so far. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

May 14, 2016, 01:00 PM	#22
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Waiting for your update I'm assuming you took some new loads out today to shoot over your new chrono __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

May 14, 2016, 08:02 PM	#23
axis223 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2016 Posts: 178	chrono will have to wait until next payday. I am having severe paint peeling issues with my 6yo truck and have to cram every penny away to get the surface rust and paint redone. I would have gotten it today but my lee hand primer decided to break last night and it was barrowed from a buddy so I had to replace both his and buy mine as well and picked up a lee auto drum because I finally found it at the store instead of paying shipping cost. all together that took my $100 for the chronograph I try and limit how much I spend on reloading/fun each payday so I don't cut myself short. payday was Friday and no more fun for 2 weeks.