26 Nosler claims: do you believe them?

[Unlicensed Dremel]

So, you're saying that "Ordinary Marketing Spin" = "Extraordinary Performance Claim" ? The hell you say!

[reynolds357]

Its a beltless .264 Win mag. Nothing special except it gets the name "Nosler." If they had left the Jeffrey full length and built a 6.5mm Rum, they whould have had something special.

[taylorce1]

My thing is if the .26 Nosler comes close to the claims in the real world on average it will be 200-300 fps faster than a .264 Win Mag. The plus side it fits in the same size action, the down side it'll probably be hard on barrels. However, if you're using it as a hunting rifle even if you send a few hundred rounds down range the barrel will probably last over 10 years before hunting accuracy goes away.

200-300 fps average above the factory standard 6.5 hotrod is pretty impressive and out of the ordinary in my book.

[JD0x0]

the down side it'll probably be hard on barrels. However, if you're using it as a hunting rifle even if you send a few hundred rounds down range the barrel will probably last over 10 years before hunting accuracy goes away.

There's also the chance that rifles in the .26 Nosler could have some sort of treatment or coating to extend barrel life, from the factory.(or at least the option to do so) Cryogenically treated barrels, Chrome lined bores, or the new Melonite stuff, could extend the life of the .26 Nosler to the point that it'll last as many, if not more rounds than 'standard' well established hunting cartridges like .243 win, .270 Winchester, etc, with a typical 4140 chromemoly steel barrel.
That could be very marketable if taken advantage of. A 'Magnum' 6.5mm faster than the .264 win mag, with more energy and barrel life than the venerable .270 Winchester, could potentially be quite a seller.

[reynolds357]

I doubt it is faster than the win mag. The Win mag is one of the most underloaded cartridges I have ever seen. In many cases, it capable of 12 to 15% more velocity than published data.

[old roper]

26 Nosler has case capacity 93gr H20 and 264 mag has 82gr H20. I think their going to get it and wouldn't surprise me to see case necked up 7mm or 30 cal.

Negative side could be price of brass. When I first started buy Nosler 280AI it was little less than $1 per case now it's around $1.50 or little more and I think it's be $2.00 pretty quick.

[Roadkill2228]

Reynolds 357 I hear what your saying about the 264 win mag being under loaded. It's even like that in my reloading manual. When I see them showing that I can reach the same velocities with my .270 winchester I do indeed find myself scratching my head a little bit (that being said I do so love my .270....I've often seen it described as the cartridge that hasn't figured out its not a magnum - you get a lot of bang for your buck - quite a bit flatter shooting than the 30-06 with bullets of equal bc and quite a bit harder hitting than the .25-06.).

[Roadkill2228]

Also in regard to the implication that I am here to bash the round when I have no experience with it; that was not my intention, I have no issue with the round and were I to acquire a rifle chambered in it I would have a lot of fun with it I'm sure. My grievance is with what are plainly exagerated claims by nosler. Kind of reminds me of the hype surrounding the ".257 hot tamale" supposedly able to "hold on hair" to five hundred yards" and drop whatever it hits in its tracks every single time by virtue of being a magical "4000 fps" round that does what slower rounds never can (never mind that that ttsx is no where near 4000 fps at 500 yards)! I call bs

[JD0x0]

It's likely that they used best possible conditions to inflate their claims a bit, for marketing purposes, it doesn't seem that far off from being true.
Assuming you could load the cartridge to achieve 3210ft/lbs with a 95 grain V-max (.264 win mag data shows at least 3183ft/lbs with a heavier bullet) a long 26,28,30 inch test barrel could probably reasonably achieve that.

Shooting in fairly good conditions (2000ft alt, 85 degree air temp) you could potentially zero at 340 yards. With the V-max's advertised BC, my ballistic calculator is showing 4.11 inches high between 180 and 190 yards. And 4.81'' low at 410 yards, 5.66'' low at 420. Whenever I read about 'point blank range' I almost always seem to see 5'' high and low being used. If we use 5'' you could zero at 365 yards, and still be under 5'' high and under 5'' low at 430 yards. Most people don't like going over 3'' high, though.

[Saltydog235]

Also in regard to the implication that I am here to bash the round when I have no experience with it; that was not my intention, I have no issue with the round and were I to acquire a rifle chambered in it I would have a lot of fun with it I'm sure. My grievance is with what are plainly exagerated claims by nosler.

You weren't named specifically as a basher and it's not just you. There are people on every message board that gunpowder is the main topic poo-pooing the round but none of them have yet to pull the trigger on one. I doubt very seriously if Nosler is going to make wild claims that don't bare out on the cartridge. Nosler has always been a pretty good company that is responsive to the consumer base, the last thing they want is to make false claims. Doubtful that the profit margins they deal in are enough to take a hit on a poorly designed product and having the base turn on them.

LOL, one thing I doubt you see in the near future is an Hornady A-Max or other bullet offered unless it is reloaded. Nosler's success with the entire thing lies in getting the guns chambered and the cartridge out there for consumption. This is where there seems to be the biggest disconnect. It will be a flop if it remain proprietary and garners little more than wildcat following.

I admit to being somewhat enthralled with the round at the announcement but after thought and finding out more on the availability I don't see it taking off. Lets face it, the majority of people want to walk in and buy a box of cartridges to shoot, not sit at the bench and craft a round for it. Those same people are going to buy a box or two of $50.00 plus ammo for their $1,600.00 gun, sight it in and wait for two/three shots per season. Long term viability isn't achieved if sales don't demand it.

Nope, the success of the 26 Nosler is dependent of Remington, Winchester, Savage etc picking it up in their every man rifles. The if's, what's, can's and when's of the ballistics don't mean that much until that happens.

[Roadkill2228]

Yeah that sounds like an accurate prediction. It might be like those lazzeroni rounds and rifles...awesome setup but inaccessible to the average joe. It's cool to see that hornady is now making brass and loaded ammo for some of the weatherby cartridges, speaking of proprietary products becoming more available.

[taylorce1]

I don't even think the success of the .26 Nosler is dependent on any company but Nosler. Outside of the .257 and .300 Weatherby how many other rifle companies chamber Weatherby rounds or make the ammunition? Nosler for now will have a monopoly on the rifle and ammunition.

Cooper might pick it up as their rifles cost as much as most full blown custom rifles anyway. It'll never be a commercial success I'd bet, but for Nosler they might just gain an extra loyal customer base for a fast .264 caliber round. Just like Roy did with his Weatherby rifles, while other companies like Remington build them on occasion, most people go to the source when they want a Weatherby rifle.

[Saltydog235]

Weatherby's success came at a different time and place. Times have changed since his beginnings. Were he to introduce his overbores today they would be received with the same skepticism, doubt and regard as the 26. Imagine someone bringing a new 300 that was better than the WM onto today's market in the same manner the 26 has been. TFL would be poo-pooing it just the same.

Having owned a few WBY guns, I don't find much in the positive for them to this day. You want to succeed and make a name for a product, you have to get it out for everyone.

[reynolds357]

WBY was not received well by the masses when Roy brought them out. Roy had a niche market for many years. WBY did not become mainstream until Roy released his cartridges to other manufacturers for rifle production. For many years, Roy was perfectly happy selling MarkV's that cost three times what a 700 cost and Vangards that cost 1.5X what a 700 cost.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

My thing is if the .26 Nosler comes close to the claims in the real world on average it will be 200-300 fps faster than a .264 Win Mag.

Big if. I have serious doubts. .264 win mag has case cap. of 82 gr of h2o, and it's a screamer - getting marginal returns off screamers takes a lot of powder, and this one ain't long enough to hold that much more powder I don't think.

Still, even if it's identical to the .264 Winmag, it has a valid raison d'etre with the beltless case. So 50 fps more alone would be gravy. Not to mention Nosler support in the form of high-quality rifles, brass, and Trophy Grade ammo.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Saltydog235

You weren't named specifically as a basher and it's not just you. There are people on every message board that gunpowder is the main topic poo-pooing the round but none of them have yet to pull the trigger on one. I doubt very seriously if Nosler is going to make wild claims that don't bare out on the cartridge. Nosler has always been a pretty good company that is responsive to the consumer base, the last thing they want is to make false claims. Doubtful that the profit margins they deal in are enough to take a hit on a poorly designed product and having the base turn on them.



LOL, one thing I doubt you see in the near future is an Hornady A-Max or other bullet offered unless it is reloaded. Nosler's success with the entire thing lies in getting the guns chambered and the cartridge out there for consumption. This is where there seems to be the biggest disconnect. It will be a flop if it remain proprietary and garners little more than wildcat following.



I admit to being somewhat enthralled with the round at the announcement but after thought and finding out more on the availability I don't see it taking off. Lets face it, the majority of people want to walk in and buy a box of cartridges to shoot, not sit at the bench and craft a round for it. Those same people are going to buy a box or two of $50.00 plus ammo for their $1,600.00 gun, sight it in and wait for two/three shots per season. Long term viability isn't achieved if sales don't demand it.



Nope, the success of the 26 Nosler is dependent of Remington, Winchester, Savage etc picking it up in their every man rifles. The if's, what's, can's and when's of the ballistics don't mean that much until that happens.

Why wouldn't Nosler make claims that don't come true? It happens all the time. The .204Ruger, one of my favorite rounds ever, doesn't come close to Hornady/Ruger's claims of 4,200fps with a 32gr bullet. Few rifles reach 4,050.

Just because folks point out exaggerations doesn't mean they're hear to "poo-poo" the round any more than it makes you a "fan boy" if you speak positively about it.

Besides that, most of us aren't saying that Nosler is lying. I'm saying they're exaggerating by sighting it with a much larger target radius than would be assumed under normal circumstances. They leave that out and then claim no hold over at 415 yards.

Reminds me of Jeep advertising "the longest range per tank in it's class". That's not a lie, but do you care? Would you rather go 400 miles at 25mpg with a 16 gallon tank or 500 miles at 20mpg with a 25 gallon tank?

Longest range per tank isn't a lie, but the implication most folks will "hear" IS a lie. Same with Nosler. It's not a lie but it implies something that isn't true.

[Roadkill2228]

Well said Brian. That's what I was thinking but I didn't explain it so well

[Saltydog235]

Why wouldn't Nosler make claims that don't come true? It happens all the time. The .204Ruger, one of my favorite rounds ever, doesn't come close to Hornady/Ruger's claims of 4,200fps with a 32gr bullet. Few rifles reach 4,050.

J

ust because folks point out exaggerations doesn't mean they're hear to "poo-poo" the round any more than it makes you a "fan boy" if you speak positively about it.

Besides that, most of us aren't saying that Nosler is lying. I'm saying they're exaggerating by sighting it with a much larger target radius than would be assumed under normal circumstances. They leave that out and then claim no hold over at 415 yards.

Reminds me of Jeep advertising "the longest range per tank in it's class". That's not a lie, but do you care? Would you rather go 400 miles at 25mpg with a 16 gallon tank or 500 miles at 20mpg with a 25 gallon tank?

Longest range per tank isn't a lie, but the implication most folks will "hear" IS a lie. Same with Nosler. It's not a lie but it implies something that isn't true.

Have you put your hands on the rifle or round? Have you pulled the trigger on one yet? Have you set up a Chrony and run tests? Do you know anyone who has or has a cousin's, best friends brother's uncles son who has had experience with it? Were you present when they tested the round to come up with the data they used for their claims?

The answer is no you don't and weren't. Your suppositions are just that, suppositions, your data is compelling but not based on experience with the round. Maybe Nosler has exaggerated things some, maybe they haven't. Time will tell as will real world experience with the round and reports.

You and a few others have been bashing the round since I put up the first post on it back when it was announced. How about lets get it out there and put it through the paces before it's totally discounted. I can't call it what it is, so Negative Nelly will have to suffice. Maybe be a bit more open minded and receptive to something before you say what it can and cannot do, or at least back it up with personal experience or the cousin's best friends, brothers etc.

Your thoughts/suppositions may be fully borne out, then again they may not be.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Have you put your hands on the rifle or round? Have you pulled the trigger on one yet? Have you set up a Chrony and run tests? Do you know anyone who has or has a cousin's, best friends brother's uncles son who has had experience with it? Were you present when they tested the round to come up with the data they used for their claims?

The answer is no you don't and weren't.

Have you done any of those things?

since I put up the first post on it back when it was announced.

Why are you posting about it if you haven't used it?

My objections don't require use... Nosler makes specific claims with enough data that we can extrapolate the rest. The laws of physics don't change when the gun gets to your hands.

If they are shooting that bullet at that speed with a a 415 yard MPBR, they are sighted 5" high. That is an extra ordinary condition which is not a reasonable assumption. They do not specify that particular condition because they know it would make their extra ordinary claim seem to be NOT extraordinary and would make their new round seem very ordinary... because it is.

Most folks sight in no more than 3" high. The .26 Noslers MPBR with 3" max would about 339 yards.
Compare that to a .264Win Mag, at 327, or a 6.5Rem Mag at 316.

Hm. That's a lot less impressive.

Let's put it at 5" though, that's ok as long as you actually TELL PEOPLE.

The Nosler get 415, as they claim. The .264WIn Mag gets 399 and the 6.5Rem Mag gets 386.

The real difference? Let's say you've got 2 guns on a hunt with you, a .264Win Mag and a .26 Nosler, both sighted 5" high and you're going to take a shot at 415 with no holdover. You randomly reach into a box and take one out.... you know how much difference it makes at 415 yards?

1.6 inches.

That's not all that extraordinary, is it?

Further, when I consider windage at those ranges... the .264WinMag will drift 8.9" and the .26Nosler 8.4".... both are well outside (80% larger) than your 5" target radius. That means you're making clicks anyway. 415 yards shots require time to make adjustments. The difference between 8 clicks windage and ready rather than 8 clicks windage and 6 clicks elevation is irrelevant. Certainly not extraordinary. Few folks will take a shot knowing they're going to be 5" low. They just make the clicks. If you're going to make the clicks anyway, it really makes no difference if you make 4 or 6. If you're not going to make the clicks anyway, you can't hold smaller than 1.6" at 415 anyway.

[Saltydog235]

I haven't made any claims as to what it can and cannot do. I haven't made assumptions on what Nosler used as the criteria to arrive at their claims. I have said all that much about the cartridge at all other than it looks interesting but that it will fail to achieve and marketable notoriety unless it is put into a production rifle. I think the cartridge is interesting and would like to play around with it in the future, that's the limits of my commentary on the round.

By your own calculations, then Nosler's 26 is superior to the 264 then isn't it. The point is Nosler made a better mousetrap. Was the mousetrap needed, not at all. The old mousetraps work fine but everyone is tired of them. Nosler did what any company does to survive, it innovated a new round and marketed it. I guess you feel the way about this that I do about all those short mags, they are unnecessary and really don't do anything the old standards didn't do.

Again, I'm not saying that you aren't right 100%, I am saying to let it get some real world work before it is discounted totally. My guess is most of us never really get to mess around with it due to the limited availability of the guns and ammo, not to mention expense of both. Personally I think it dies on the vine in a few years looking at the way they are putting it out there.

[Sierra280]

Thank you Brian.

You don't need to actually run tests, it's just Newtonian physics. Given the information Nosler has provided; these things are almost EXACTLY predictable!

[Brian Pfleuger]

I am saying to let it get some real world work before it is discounted totally.

So, you'd like the threads on it to be filled with:

Poster 1 "Looks interesting."

Poster 2 "Yep, sure does."

Poster 3 "Yeah, I agree, interesting."

Poster 4 "You guys are right, it's interesting."

What are we to discuss if we can't evaluate anything?

I haven't made assumptions

I haven't made any assumptions either. It's physics. They give an exact bullet, an exact muzzle velocity and an exact MPBR. There are trajectory calculators all over the internet. Pick your favorite and enter the numbers. Let me know when you find one that disagrees.

I've also not said a single thing about the round being superior or inferior. I have addressed Nosler's claims, the basis for those claims, how they effect perception and what the real differences actually are in the real world.

Is it "superior"? Theoretically, yes, in a purely literal sense, as a matter of NOTHING BUT trajectory, it would appear so, by about 1.6" at 415 yards.

If only that were the only consideration.

[Wyosmith]

Brian is correct in all he's saying.
I would add only one thing to this.

If a new round would shoot 6" flatter at 400 yards that the old round you can use that advantage only if you can hold well within that correction. Right?
In other words you have to ba able to hold a wobble of about 1.3 MOA or less to even use the advantage.

So.........if you can hold a wobble of 1.3 MOA or less you can also hold 6” higher.

So the "advantage" is really not important at best, and non-existent at worst.

When I was in the Marine Corps we used the M-40 as our Sniper’s Rifle and we held our hold overs and hold unders from 200 to 1000 yards.
Yes, I would have preferred to have something flatter, but we did ok with a 30 cal 173gr at only 2550 Muzzle Velocity.
We all know about Carlo Hathcock and his abilities with a 30-06 Winchester M-70. He didn’t seem to miss having a super 264, and the lack of a super .264 didn’t seem to help the enemy much.
Equipment is important, but it’s much less important than the skill of the shooter.

A very skilled shooter with a 45-70 is going to do far better than a semi-skilled shooter with the new rifle.

[taylorce1]

Here are some preliminary results on the .26 Nosler found on another forum.

Originally Posted by Gunner75

Initial 20 rounds of the factory 129's are history. I was wanting to get a feel for 100 to 500yrds and this is what I came up with.

20 rounds, Avg 3317 with ES of 60 and SD15. 100yrd Zero, 3.25 at 300, 4.75 at 400, 7.5 at 500yrds.

Shot my 6CM (just finished last fall) right next to this rifle. The recoil got me a little even though I have been running some heavy hitters. On the 500yrd target I changed my hold on the rifle on #4 and #5 and am certain that is what pulled them left.

Got the 20 cases worked and will run some 142SMK and or 140 Berger Hybrids on the next run for giggles.

My brass should be here shortly so I will drop back and retest.

Something I should mention. The last few Bartlein barrels I have ran seemed to settle in at 60 to 80 rounds give or take. Not blaming the barrel, just stating what I have witnessed on the previous.





300yrd group. One sighter, two follow up.


12th round Magneto Speed results.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

That looks nice... But isn't 60 ES a bit on the high side for such a rifle and ammo combo?

Legit. 3300 for 129/130s is the real mccoy, roughly on a par with .264 win mag - maybe 50-75 fps more; maybe not when comparing apples to apples. Probably just a smidge better performance.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/viewt...hp?f=4&t=20941

http://www.nosler.com/m48-patriot/

and why doesn't the Nosler site show the .26 Nosler ammo under either Trophy Grade or Trophy Grade LR?

http://www.nosler.com/trophy-grade/

http://www.nosler.com/trophy-grade-long-range/