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Old November 26, 2013, 02:48 PM   #1
rebs
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45 auto rim and 45 acp ?

what is the difference between these two rounds ? I ordered a taper crimp die from Lee for 45 acp and the one they sent says on the package 45 auto rim.
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Old November 26, 2013, 02:55 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...0Automatic.pdf

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Auto%20Rim.pdf

At first blush, I'd say there's no difference from a sizing perspective. Body dimensions within about 0.001"
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Old November 26, 2013, 03:06 PM   #3
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As I understand it (and I'm no expert), the 45 Auto Rim was designed as a revolver cartridge that supported 45ACP bullets, and even the powder charges. Basically, a conversion from an autoloader to a revolver.

The logical progression of (my) thought, is that the advent of moon clips rendered the Auto Rim pretty much obsolete.
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Old November 26, 2013, 03:33 PM   #4
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the 45 AR requires a different shell holder. I have both a taper and roll crimp & seating dies. you need the taper crimp for the acp and I used the roll crimp for the AR but depending upon the bullet you probably use the taper crimp die for it
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Old November 26, 2013, 03:43 PM   #5
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The .45 Auto Rim is simply a rimmed version of the .45 ACP. So long as your die taper crimps, it will be fine. I would confirm this however because as already mentioned, the most common method of crimping the Auto Rim is a roll crimp. Your die should have been designated .45 ACP and since it is designated .45 AR, it may well roll crimp rather than taper crimp.
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Old November 26, 2013, 05:46 PM   #6
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It says it taper crimps, it just threw me off when I seen it says 45 auto rim. In the mean time I called Lee and they said it is the right taper crimp for my 45 acp
They should have labeled it right
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Old November 26, 2013, 05:52 PM   #7
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I agree, rebs. At the least it should be stamped like my REDDINGs for both .45 ACP & .45 AR.
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Old November 27, 2013, 06:49 PM   #8
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Yep, that labeling is curious. I think I would check it out by load ing a few rounds, then measuring diameter at the case mouth and comparing same to several factory .45 ACPloads.
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Old November 28, 2013, 11:37 AM   #9
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I haveused it with no problems, it works on my 45 acp's
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Old November 28, 2013, 12:46 PM   #10
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I have done experiments with both 45acp and 45 auto rim.
I got an S&W 25-2 off an internet forum for $360 in 2002.
The moon clips with 45acp brass tend to miss fire.
The auto rim brass never miss fires.
I tried to see how much performance I could get.
I did the best with:
1) H110 230 gr FMJ and 1.4" OAL
2) LIL'GUN 300 gr cast bullet and 1.555" OAL

The crimp is a problem with the 44 mag like recoil.
The bullets pull back out.
The Lee factory crimp for 45acp seems to get the job done.
I always thought about cutting the bottom off a 45 Colt seater die so I could use the roll crimp, or make a crimp die.
This week I have been making 455 Eley brass from 45 Colt brass with the lathe. I ordered a 455 Eley seater body from Lee precision.
I will probably be able to use that to make a roll crimp on 45 Auto rim as well.
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Old November 28, 2013, 01:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
The logical progression of (my) thought, is that the advent of moon clips rendered the Auto Rim pretty much obsolete.
Actually, its rather the opposite, sort of. The Auto Rim case was designed so DA revolvers, chambered in .45acp could be used without the half moon clips. Specifically the 1917 Colt & S&W revolvers, which there were a lot of in civilian hands after WW I.

Originally, half moon clips (full moon clips didn't come along until much later) were intended NOT as speed loaders (although they are faster than loading individual rounds), but as a necessary "stopgap" to allow the DA extractors to work.

You can load and fire .45ACP ammo in these guns, without using any clips, but you will have to poke the empties out, one at a time with a rod/pencil, etc.

If you look at the really old loading data, you often find slightly hotter loads (at max) for the AR (auto rim) case than for the .45acp. This is because of the way pressures were measured in the old days, and the general belief that the large frame revolvers in .45acp were stronger than the 1911.

The same dies are used to load both cases, the only difference is the .45AR needs a different shellholder than the .45ACP.
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Old November 28, 2013, 03:35 PM   #12
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I shot about 1000 rounds through my .45 ACP revolver this year, and I did have evidence of bullets (plated) creeping forward in the case during firing. It never caused any functional issues, but I can't imagine it's good for consistent velocities and accuracy. If I were a dedicated revolver shooter, I'd probably use bullets with a crimp groove for roll crimping.
I'd expect ACP and AR taper crimp dies to be the same.
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Old November 28, 2013, 09:36 PM   #13
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Thanks for the info 44 AMP. Good learn. I wasn't sure of the historic progression. And had forgotten about half moon clips entirely.
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Old November 30, 2013, 09:38 PM   #14
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Peters Cartridge Company introduced the .45 Auto Rim cartridge in 1920 after surplus M1917 revolvers began to hit the civilian market AND both Colt and Smith & Wesson sold guns made from parts that had been intended for military service, but which were surplussed when the war ended and production contracts canceled.
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Old November 30, 2013, 10:50 PM   #15
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rebs - for what it's worth, Titan (who sells Lee) lists the same taper crimp die for both the 45 ACP and 45 AR - as well as several other cartridges. Odd that Lee wouldn't label them for all of the cartridges but it should work just fine.
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Old November 30, 2013, 11:12 PM   #16
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I have Lee's deluxe 4 die set for .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim, it is labeled for both rounds (but only has one shellholder.. I would assume if I were to load .45 AR I would end up needing an additional shellholder.) Assuming it's the same FCD that came with my .45 Auto/Auto rim 4 die set, you should disassemble the die and look at the crimp portion.. it is reversible, one side taper crimps, one side roll crimps. It is pretty easy to tell which side does what, if in doubt crimp a case without a bullet in it and it will be very obvious which side is down.
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