full length or neck resize

kingudaroad · October 23, 2006, 02:26 PM

OK Here's the story. Worked up my first handloads for a brand new Remington 700 VLS chambered in 6mm remington. I full lenth resized the new brass and some would not chamber without screwing the die in a little past touching the shellholder. Some of the shoulders needed to be pushed back a little even with the new remington brass. Tight chamber I guess.

I've worked up my loads with the new brass and got them shooting excellent groups. Now I am going to reload the once fired brass. Considering that the shoulder needed to be bumped back even with NEW brass, would you recomend neck sizing the fire formed cases or go ahead with a full length resize again.

**Mike Irwin** · October 23, 2006, 03:05 PM

If you're looking for the best accuracy, I'd neck size only.

castnblast · October 23, 2006, 03:14 PM

If you're using them for hunting, I'd full lenght size. You get one good cold morning and watch it get tighter...If it is for bench shooting, then I wouldn't mind the extra effort to close the bolt.

T-Mac · October 25, 2006, 02:39 PM

"kingudaroad"
I have the same gun...bought new.. Only had it 2 weeks
Normally on my other guns, I neck size....about 3 times and then full length..and repeat. I am just getting into the third firing on the brass for this gun. I've been neck sizing for it, too.

I'm looking for tips on a couple of things...if you could?

What you are seating your bullets at / (C.O.A.L)...and what powder and what bullets you are getting the good groups with.
I'm not asking for recipes

Just tips.

Like I said I'd appreciate suggestions on seating depth on the bullets you are using and the powders you are liking.
Thanks.

kingudaroad · October 25, 2006, 06:35 PM

P.M. sent

Ausserordeutlich · October 26, 2006, 10:26 AM

T-Mac: I can guarantee you that the information you seek is worthless.

kingudaroad · October 26, 2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

T-Mac: I can guarantee you that the information you seek is worthless.

Yeah, sharing information about different powders and bullets within the same caliber could never be useful.

Shoney · October 26, 2006, 01:08 PM

Ausserordeutlich said

Quote:

T-Mac: I can guarantee you that the information you seek is worthless.

Without supporting information, statements like this are worthless.

Ausserordeutlich · October 26, 2006, 02:24 PM

I have the supporting information.

Invest in the Stoney Point tool and think for about five seconds, and you'll have it too.

T-Mac · October 27, 2006, 11:25 AM

Yeah...you are probably right on the COAL...part.

But, as a result of my question, "kingudaroad" and I have struck up a PM conversation on the whole subject of of 6MM Rem, in 700VLS.
As it turns out, he gave me a couple of useful things to think about.

I have the Stoney Point OAL guage, but...it still takes time to find the sweet spot.

I'm doing it the regular way. I backed off .0625 from the lands and am working out .005 with each new batch of test loads. I'm getting closer to what I want...My groups are getting better, with all 5 powders I'm trying.

"Variables" ------> Eliminate, eliminate, eliminate........ you know

Thanks.

mrawesome22 · November 5, 2006, 01:09 AM

I've found that fireformed brass gets harder to chamber because of oxidation on the brass. Send them through the tumbler if they get hard to chamber and it will clear it right up.

rn22723 · November 5, 2006, 07:30 AM

Now I have read of bs :barf:

Quote:

I've found that fireformed brass gets harder to chamber because of oxidation on the brass. Send them through the tumbler if they get hard to chamber and it will clear it right up.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have encountered on the internet!

Developing a method to handling brass fired in a bolt gun is pretty easy!
FL size new brass is good idea to clean case mouths dinged in shipping.
But, a person that is not shooting HOT loads can neck size the brass for several firings before needing to bump the shoulder back.

Ammo Junky · November 5, 2006, 12:19 PM

I have spent a small fortune on redding competition neck sizing dies in several cal. I can honestly say the only changes I saw in my guns were 1 harder chambering 2 sometimes a change in poi (frustrating)

3 less frequent brass trimming.

. I now use the redding fl bushing dies with a carbide expander. I pick a bushing that gives .0015 neck tension compared to the smallest loaded rd. I would love to hear the speficis of anyone who saw a measurable accuracy increase with ns. Do most of you see a poi change with ns compared to fl sizing and compared to new brass?

amamnn · November 5, 2006, 03:46 PM

If folks are having trouble chambering a round after neck sizing, there is something else going on in their loading process. The brass can only expand as much as the chamber will allow, and then shrinks back a bit. This action is called springback, or rebound and is a well known part of forming brass, at least to any experienced handloader. Even those of us who fireform at extreme pressures to develop new cartridges do not have hard chambering as a result. OXIDATION????!!!!

For most factory rifles neck sizing seems to help accuracy. For match rifles and long distance varmint rifles, it looks like most of the really successful shooters have gone back to FL sizing in support of jam seating the bullets in the lands.

Another thing to consider when deciding to neck or FL size your brass is the effect on case capacity. Using a good FL die to set shoulders and case diameter will ensure that cases you have sorted for capacity--as opposed to weight-- will remain true. The same cannot be said of neck sized cases. Again, this works best in match rifles with closely spec'ed chambers.

I see 918 is back under another name with his smarmy less than helpful off subject comments.

hilblly · November 10, 2006, 11:26 PM

I can remember asking the very same question of neck sizing vs. fl sizing or even using the full length die and just bumping the shoulder back a thousandth or two. I have been neck sizing a max 270 win load for both target and hunting(even in cold temps) and never had trouble chambering. Accuracy? five shot group without letting the barrel cool at 5/16". If you are having trouble chambering look for something else causing the problem.

mrawesome22 · November 11, 2006, 12:43 AM

Hey RN22723. I wasn't going to reply to your comment but since this thread has been revived I think I will. Everyone talks about fireformed brass needs to have the shoulder bumped back every once in a while. Why would this be if the brass is only shot in the same chamber? The brass can never get bigger than the chamber right? All my fireformed brass gets harder to chamber around the 5th reloading. I also noticed that around that time, there is a lot of tarnish and discoloration on the brass by then. After I run them through the tumbler they chamber perfectly again. I don't know if you just read my reply wrong or if you are just calling me a liar but I take serious offense to the latter. I think your behaviour is :barf: And yes, I think 918v was put on this earth to counter balance everyone with GOOD intentions.

Ammo Junky · November 11, 2006, 12:13 PM

I largely stopped ns becaus I have heard of fte and I didnt see any improvments in accuracy. Agian I would love to hear spefics of those of you that have before and after groups. I have before and after groups, but they are no better, just a different poi.
M22 If you dont tumble your brass every load, I can certinaly see how a good polish would make some difference in chambering and extraction. I tumble mine before and after sizing. How many fireings total can you get from your ns brass and do you ever have to bump the shoulder? How offten do youhave to trim?

mrawesome22 · November 11, 2006, 01:33 PM

I'm on my 18th reload with 20 pieces of Win brass that I bought brand new. I have never bumped the shoulder back, and I tumble when they get tight. They have never been FL sized all were trimmed with a Lee Cutter and Lock Stud prior to the first firing. I've never needed to trim then again. All have only seen the Lee Collet Neck Die. The first shot with these shells was a grain below max and all since have been max cgarges. They all look fine so far, but I'm waiting for a split neck while seating very soon. I've done the bent paper clip trick and all feel fine to me.

My gun just must be easy on brass? Mind you this a bolt gun, not an AR15. I would never neck size for semi auto for fear of partial bolt closes. I neck size because I'm on a budget and I can't afford to buy brass all the time.

Ammo Junky · November 11, 2006, 03:49 PM

The lack of trimming :barf: is the BIG apeal for me. I wonder if the rifle head space / lug wear grows any quicker with ns from the additional pressuar on bolt closing?

18 loads and no trimming.

holy cow, I may have to revisit the ns.

amamnn · November 12, 2006, 02:34 AM

Most factory rifles will see better accuracy with neck sized brass. The reason that neck sized brass may need to be FL sized from time to time is because springback works in both directions, sometimes resulting in long shoulders, and can take as much as a week to finish, I am told. Also neck sizing does not control concentricity or case volume. Neck sizing does not totally eliminate the need to trim cases, nor the need to anneal occasionally.

A tightly chambered rifle can benefit more from precision FL sizing and bullet seating adjustments than with neck sizing.

Buckythebrewer · November 12, 2006, 10:14 AM

I have to agree with amamnn and rn22723,,Even in my ar15 I have never had a problem using my neck sizing dies(not really safe without shoulder measuring tools)and thats without the extra bolt leverage of a bolt action..It would be something else that keeps your rounds from chambering.I also never clean my brass with anything(except primer pockets),,Yes I said never!!And my ar15's are always reliable using handloads and factory ammo..I like the neck sizing die for the simple reason of not having to lube my brass and the speed of reloading with them and less working of the brass(making the brass last longer),,There is also more powder capacity to be had by neck sizing only..I check shoulder displacement and bump the shoulder back when needed with a FL die..With a bolt action I would only FL size with brass that was not fired in my chamber,,Then after that I would use a neck sizing die only.Its easier and more consistent while keeping your brass around longer.You also don't have to worry about sizing your brass to much(and that can cause head case seperation

) while using a neck sizing die.With a FL die you can size to much if you don't have a way to measure your shoulder so you can set your die properly(you DONT want that),I use the rcbs precision mic and love it for comparing shoulder displacement before/after firing.. With a neck sizing die your brass fireforms to your chamber(actually shrinks a little in places).The main thing to worry about is with semi-auto's and shoulder displacement, because the semi-auto can't always chamber if the bolt can't close due to shoulder displacement being stretched(not safe due to out of battery slamfire possibilities!!).with a bolt action you don't have to worry about that so I highly recommend using a neck sizing die in your bolt gun.FYI The Lee collet die is the only NS die I have experience with just so ya know,..JMO

October 23, 2006, 02:26 PM	#1
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	full length or neck resize OK Here's the story. Worked up my first handloads for a brand new Remington 700 VLS chambered in 6mm remington. I full lenth resized the new brass and some would not chamber without screwing the die in a little past touching the shellholder. Some of the shoulders needed to be pushed back a little even with the new remington brass. Tight chamber I guess. I've worked up my loads with the new brass and got them shooting excellent groups. Now I am going to reload the once fired brass. Considering that the shoulder needed to be bumped back even with NEW brass, would you recomend neck sizing the fire formed cases or go ahead with a full length resize again.

October 23, 2006, 03:05 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,382	If you're looking for the best accuracy, I'd neck size only. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 23, 2006, 03:14 PM	#3
castnblast Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Location: Corpus Christi TX Posts: 1,148	If you're using them for hunting, I'd full lenght size. You get one good cold morning and watch it get tighter...If it is for bench shooting, then I wouldn't mind the extra effort to close the bolt. __________________ VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter

November 5, 2006, 12:19 PM	#13
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	I have spent a small fortune on redding competition neck sizing dies in several cal. I can honestly say the only changes I saw in my guns were 1 harder chambering 2 sometimes a change in poi (frustrating) 3 less frequent brass trimming. . I now use the redding fl bushing dies with a carbide expander. I pick a bushing that gives .0015 neck tension compared to the smallest loaded rd. I would love to hear the speficis of anyone who saw a measurable accuracy increase with ns. Do most of you see a poi change with ns compared to fl sizing and compared to new brass? __________________ Will work for brass. I apologise in advance for spelling errors.

November 5, 2006, 03:46 PM	#14
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	If folks are having trouble chambering a round after neck sizing, there is something else going on in their loading process. The brass can only expand as much as the chamber will allow, and then shrinks back a bit. This action is called springback, or rebound and is a well known part of forming brass, at least to any experienced handloader. Even those of us who fireform at extreme pressures to develop new cartridges do not have hard chambering as a result. OXIDATION????!!!! For most factory rifles neck sizing seems to help accuracy. For match rifles and long distance varmint rifles, it looks like most of the really successful shooters have gone back to FL sizing in support of jam seating the bullets in the lands. Another thing to consider when deciding to neck or FL size your brass is the effect on case capacity. Using a good FL die to set shoulders and case diameter will ensure that cases you have sorted for capacity--as opposed to weight-- will remain true. The same cannot be said of neck sized cases. Again, this works best in match rifles with closely spec'ed chambers. I see 918 is back under another name with his smarmy less than helpful off subject comments. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

October 25, 2006, 02:39 PM	#4
T-Mac Member Join Date: January 18, 2006 Location: Townsend, MT Posts: 99	"kingudaroad" I have the same gun...bought new.. Only had it 2 weeks Normally on my other guns, I neck size....about 3 times and then full length..and repeat. I am just getting into the third firing on the brass for this gun. I've been neck sizing for it, too. I'm looking for tips on a couple of things...if you could? What you are seating your bullets at / (C.O.A.L)...and what powder and what bullets you are getting the good groups with. I'm not asking for recipes Just tips. Like I said I'd appreciate suggestions on seating depth on the bullets you are using and the powders you are liking. Thanks.

October 25, 2006, 06:35 PM	#5
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	P.M. sent

October 26, 2006, 10:26 AM	#6
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	T-Mac: I can guarantee you that the information you seek is worthless.

October 26, 2006, 02:24 PM	#9
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	I have the supporting information. Invest in the Stoney Point tool and think for about five seconds, and you'll have it too.

October 27, 2006, 11:25 AM	#10
T-Mac Member Join Date: January 18, 2006 Location: Townsend, MT Posts: 99	Yeah...you are probably right on the COAL...part. But, as a result of my question, "kingudaroad" and I have struck up a PM conversation on the whole subject of of 6MM Rem, in 700VLS. As it turns out, he gave me a couple of useful things to think about. I have the Stoney Point OAL guage, but...it still takes time to find the sweet spot. I'm doing it the regular way. I backed off .0625 from the lands and am working out .005 with each new batch of test loads. I'm getting closer to what I want...My groups are getting better, with all 5 powders I'm trying. "Variables" ------> Eliminate, eliminate, eliminate........ you know Thanks.

November 5, 2006, 01:09 AM	#11
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I've found that fireformed brass gets harder to chamber because of oxidation on the brass. Send them through the tumbler if they get hard to chamber and it will clear it right up.

November 10, 2006, 11:26 PM	#15
hilblly Member Join Date: October 8, 2004 Location: Southwest, MT Posts: 94	I can remember asking the very same question of neck sizing vs. fl sizing or even using the full length die and just bumping the shoulder back a thousandth or two. I have been neck sizing a max 270 win load for both target and hunting(even in cold temps) and never had trouble chambering. Accuracy? five shot group without letting the barrel cool at 5/16". If you are having trouble chambering look for something else causing the problem.

November 11, 2006, 12:43 AM	#16
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Hey RN22723. I wasn't going to reply to your comment but since this thread has been revived I think I will. Everyone talks about fireformed brass needs to have the shoulder bumped back every once in a while. Why would this be if the brass is only shot in the same chamber? The brass can never get bigger than the chamber right? All my fireformed brass gets harder to chamber around the 5th reloading. I also noticed that around that time, there is a lot of tarnish and discoloration on the brass by then. After I run them through the tumbler they chamber perfectly again. I don't know if you just read my reply wrong or if you are just calling me a liar but I take serious offense to the latter. I think your behaviour is :barf: And yes, I think 918v was put on this earth to counter balance everyone with GOOD intentions.

November 11, 2006, 12:13 PM	#17
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	I largely stopped ns becaus I have heard of fte and I didnt see any improvments in accuracy. Agian I would love to hear spefics of those of you that have before and after groups. I have before and after groups, but they are no better, just a different poi. M22 If you dont tumble your brass every load, I can certinaly see how a good polish would make some difference in chambering and extraction. I tumble mine before and after sizing. How many fireings total can you get from your ns brass and do you ever have to bump the shoulder? How offten do youhave to trim? __________________ Will work for brass. I apologise in advance for spelling errors.

November 11, 2006, 01:33 PM	#18
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I'm on my 18th reload with 20 pieces of Win brass that I bought brand new. I have never bumped the shoulder back, and I tumble when they get tight. They have never been FL sized all were trimmed with a Lee Cutter and Lock Stud prior to the first firing. I've never needed to trim then again. All have only seen the Lee Collet Neck Die. The first shot with these shells was a grain below max and all since have been max cgarges. They all look fine so far, but I'm waiting for a split neck while seating very soon. I've done the bent paper clip trick and all feel fine to me. My gun just must be easy on brass? Mind you this a bolt gun, not an AR15. I would never neck size for semi auto for fear of partial bolt closes. I neck size because I'm on a budget and I can't afford to buy brass all the time.

November 11, 2006, 03:49 PM	#19
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	The lack of trimming :barf: is the BIG apeal for me. I wonder if the rifle head space / lug wear grows any quicker with ns from the additional pressuar on bolt closing? 18 loads and no trimming. holy cow, I may have to revisit the ns. __________________ Will work for brass. I apologise in advance for spelling errors.

November 12, 2006, 02:34 AM	#20
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Most factory rifles will see better accuracy with neck sized brass. The reason that neck sized brass may need to be FL sized from time to time is because springback works in both directions, sometimes resulting in long shoulders, and can take as much as a week to finish, I am told. Also neck sizing does not control concentricity or case volume. Neck sizing does not totally eliminate the need to trim cases, nor the need to anneal occasionally. A tightly chambered rifle can benefit more from precision FL sizing and bullet seating adjustments than with neck sizing. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

November 12, 2006, 10:14 AM	#21
Buckythebrewer Junior member Join Date: April 15, 2006 Location: Jefferson, ME Posts: 700	I have to agree with amamnn and rn22723,,Even in my ar15 I have never had a problem using my neck sizing dies(not really safe without shoulder measuring tools)and thats without the extra bolt leverage of a bolt action..It would be something else that keeps your rounds from chambering.I also never clean my brass with anything(except primer pockets),,Yes I said never!!And my ar15's are always reliable using handloads and factory ammo..I like the neck sizing die for the simple reason of not having to lube my brass and the speed of reloading with them and less working of the brass(making the brass last longer),,There is also more powder capacity to be had by neck sizing only..I check shoulder displacement and bump the shoulder back when needed with a FL die..With a bolt action I would only FL size with brass that was not fired in my chamber,,Then after that I would use a neck sizing die only.Its easier and more consistent while keeping your brass around longer.You also don't have to worry about sizing your brass to much(and that can cause head case seperation ) while using a neck sizing die.With a FL die you can size to much if you don't have a way to measure your shoulder so you can set your die properly(you DONT want that),I use the rcbs precision mic and love it for comparing shoulder displacement before/after firing.. With a neck sizing die your brass fireforms to your chamber(actually shrinks a little in places).The main thing to worry about is with semi-auto's and shoulder displacement, because the semi-auto can't always chamber if the bolt can't close due to shoulder displacement being stretched(not safe due to out of battery slamfire possibilities!!).with a bolt action you don't have to worry about that so I highly recommend using a neck sizing die in your bolt gun.FYI The Lee collet die is the only NS die I have experience with just so ya know,..JMO