what did i do wrong?

dmented692006 · February 22, 2006, 11:32 PM

im new to reloading and so far ive only reloaded some 30-06 bullets. today i was trying to reload some 40 s&w for my brother and when i seated the bullets the brass looked crumpled or like it had small waves in it, is this normal or did i do something wrong? im useing carbide dies and i was told i didnt need to use lube for them, is that true?

Thanks

rwilson452 · February 22, 2006, 11:45 PM

sounds to me like you didn't bell the case or didn't bell the case enough. IF I might suggest. doing straight walled pistol reloads do it in more steps
1) size and deprime
2) Prime
3) bell the mouth and drop powder
4) seat the bullet
5) crimp.

I note that belling the case mouth is not a step in reloading 30-06 nor do you normally crimp.

If the 30-06 round is going to be used in a semi-auto crimping is called for.

dmented692006 · February 22, 2006, 11:51 PM

im new to all of this and im not really even sure how to crimp, i ordered a lyman video but that was crap and didnt help me at all. i was thinking i didnt size the case enough and that when u seated the bullet it was too tight and it crumpled the case.

MrGee · February 23, 2006, 12:35 AM

the dies for the 40 ... how many do have to work with is it a 2pc or a 3 pc set ? lets start there

mxwelch · February 23, 2006, 12:49 AM

There is a small hole in the die to let the air be pushed out of the way when at the top of the stroke. If it's clogged it will also cause this problem.

Ruger4570 · February 23, 2006, 09:34 AM

The only time I have ever experienced this problem was either from not belling the case enough and occasionally from seating the bullet too fast. I now "ease" the bullets into the cases. Never had the problem again..

918v · February 23, 2006, 11:50 AM

Or he buckled the case by overcrimping/ poor die adjustment.

azredhawk44 · February 23, 2006, 11:55 AM

I second the over-crimp theory.

40 S&W is like 45acp. Doesn't need much (or any) crimp. Just enough to lightly snug the bullet. Mostly just seating to the right depth, that's all.

The cartridge gets its headspacing from the mouth. The rim of the case has to be "outside" the edge of the bullet in order to seat correctly in the chamber.

Overcrimping will leave the bullet too high (usually), it will bring the case mouth into the bullet's body, and the bullet seater will still continue to come down on the downstroke in the press and try to push the bullet deeper into hte case. Because the crimp is so tight, it can't, so the weakest point in the link, the brass, collapses downwards to allow the bullet to move downwards.

Ruger4570 · February 23, 2006, 04:25 PM

You guys are right, I forgot about crimping too heavily as a possibility.

Tacoma · February 23, 2006, 04:37 PM

The way to do it is to run 4-5 cases through the process. Remove and inspect each case between each process. ( Again, how many/what brand dies are you running?) This way you'll be able to ID exactly at what stage the crumpling is ocuring. Not adding enough bell to the case mouth can cause it, as can elongated cases bottoming out in the sizing die and/or criping die. All can be fixed with adjustments once you know where the issue is.

tjhands · February 23, 2006, 05:20 PM

Here's an easy way to tell if it's a matter of not belling the case mouth enough to allow proper bullet seating: Take a case that you haven't yet tried to seat a bullet in - but one from the same batch that you had previously considered ready to seat. Now take a bullet in your fingers and see if you can get the bullet to stay in the case by using only light pressure with your hands. You want the case mouth to be belled (opened) just enough so that a bullet will juuuuuust stay in the brass from using light hand pressure, but not so much that it can be pushed in to any real measurable depth.
If you can't get the bullet to stay in the case mouth at all with light hand pressure, you need to turn the belling die in a bit further until you get the bullet to stay in place. Then you're ready to seat it fully with the seating die.

That may be the problem, but.....maybe not.

tjhands · February 23, 2006, 05:21 PM

Can you post pictures? That would help greatly.

cdoc42 · February 23, 2006, 05:30 PM

Seat the bulets without crimping, then crimp as the final step. An extra step but eliminates the problem you describe. Maybe all your cases are not the same length, either. If you seat/crimp in one step, the longer case may crumble. Doing it separately prevents that.

dmented692006 · February 24, 2006, 02:38 PM

im still not sure exactly how to crimp. i have lee carbide 3 set dies and i think i fixed the problem, i adjuted the top screw on the bullet seater and it seems ok now

pinestraw · February 24, 2006, 03:24 PM

The most probable cause is mis-adjusted crimping/seating die. Back off seating and adjust crimp to just crimo to point of removing flare, then adjust
seating stem to achieve specified overall length.
Don't discard "wavy" case. Use bullet puller to remove bullet, powder, and then resize. Don't remove live primer, just skip primer setting step. Resizing
will eliminate wavy case, and allow you to salvage case

redhawk41 · February 25, 2006, 01:02 PM

It took me a few tries to get the Lee seater die set up properly. Here are the steps I follow now that I have figured it out:

1) Screw in die a few turns.
2) Run sized and belled case into die.
3) Screw in die until you feel it hit the case mouth, then back out slightly. Tighten the lock ring.
4) Unscrew bullet seater adjustment (top screw) almost the whole way.
5) Seat bullet and check OAL. Screw in bullet seater adjustment and reseat bullet, repeat until the proper OAL is achieved.

IME the Lee bullet seating dies have a crimping shoulder that interferes with the case if the die is screwed in to far. Practice on some cases without powder or primer until you get the die adjusted properly.

redhawk41 · February 25, 2006, 01:10 PM

I also purchased a Lee Factory Crimp Die and crimp in a seperate step.

Highly recommended.

918v · February 25, 2006, 01:26 PM

I don't recommend it.

If you use the proper diameter lead bullet in your semi, the FCD will reduce that diameter during the crimping process. Now you have an undersized bullet.

There is no need for the FCD. A properly adjusted seater coupled with a properly adjusted standard crimp die works fine.

February 22, 2006, 11:32 PM	#1
dmented692006 Member Join Date: January 21, 2006 Posts: 60	what did i do wrong? im new to reloading and so far ive only reloaded some 30-06 bullets. today i was trying to reload some 40 s&w for my brother and when i seated the bullets the brass looked crumpled or like it had small waves in it, is this normal or did i do something wrong? im useing carbide dies and i was told i didnt need to use lube for them, is that true? Thanks

February 22, 2006, 11:45 PM	#2
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	crumpled brass sounds to me like you didn't bell the case or didn't bell the case enough. IF I might suggest. doing straight walled pistol reloads do it in more steps 1) size and deprime 2) Prime 3) bell the mouth and drop powder 4) seat the bullet 5) crimp. I note that belling the case mouth is not a step in reloading 30-06 nor do you normally crimp. If the 30-06 round is going to be used in a semi-auto crimping is called for.

February 23, 2006, 05:20 PM	#11
tjhands Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 1,718	Here's an easy way to tell if it's a matter of not belling the case mouth enough to allow proper bullet seating: Take a case that you haven't yet tried to seat a bullet in - but one from the same batch that you had previously considered ready to seat. Now take a bullet in your fingers and see if you can get the bullet to stay in the case by using only light pressure with your hands. You want the case mouth to be belled (opened) just enough so that a bullet will juuuuuust stay in the brass from using light hand pressure, but not so much that it can be pushed in to any real measurable depth. If you can't get the bullet to stay in the case mouth at all with light hand pressure, you need to turn the belling die in a bit further until you get the bullet to stay in place. Then you're ready to seat it fully with the seating die. That may be the problem, but.....maybe not. __________________ "If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent

February 23, 2006, 05:21 PM	#12
tjhands Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 1,718	Can you post pictures? That would help greatly. __________________ "If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent

February 24, 2006, 03:24 PM	#15
pinestraw Member Join Date: October 24, 2005 Posts: 57	What did I do wrong The most probable cause is mis-adjusted crimping/seating die. Back off seating and adjust crimp to just crimo to point of removing flare, then adjust seating stem to achieve specified overall length. Don't discard "wavy" case. Use bullet puller to remove bullet, powder, and then resize. Don't remove live primer, just skip primer setting step. Resizing will eliminate wavy case, and allow you to salvage case

February 22, 2006, 11:51 PM	#3
dmented692006 Member Join Date: January 21, 2006 Posts: 60	im new to all of this and im not really even sure how to crimp, i ordered a lyman video but that was crap and didnt help me at all. i was thinking i didnt size the case enough and that when u seated the bullet it was too tight and it crumpled the case.

February 23, 2006, 12:35 AM	#4
MrGee Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 260	the dies for the 40 ... how many do have to work with is it a 2pc or a 3 pc set ? lets start there

February 23, 2006, 12:49 AM	#5
mxwelch Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2006 Posts: 379	There is a small hole in the die to let the air be pushed out of the way when at the top of the stroke. If it's clogged it will also cause this problem.

February 23, 2006, 09:34 AM	#6
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	The only time I have ever experienced this problem was either from not belling the case enough and occasionally from seating the bullet too fast. I now "ease" the bullets into the cases. Never had the problem again..

February 23, 2006, 11:50 AM	#7
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	Or he buckled the case by overcrimping/ poor die adjustment.

February 23, 2006, 11:55 AM	#8
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I second the over-crimp theory. 40 S&W is like 45acp. Doesn't need much (or any) crimp. Just enough to lightly snug the bullet. Mostly just seating to the right depth, that's all. The cartridge gets its headspacing from the mouth. The rim of the case has to be "outside" the edge of the bullet in order to seat correctly in the chamber. Overcrimping will leave the bullet too high (usually), it will bring the case mouth into the bullet's body, and the bullet seater will still continue to come down on the downstroke in the press and try to push the bullet deeper into hte case. Because the crimp is so tight, it can't, so the weakest point in the link, the brass, collapses downwards to allow the bullet to move downwards.

February 23, 2006, 04:25 PM	#9
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	You guys are right, I forgot about crimping too heavily as a possibility.

February 23, 2006, 04:37 PM	#10
Tacoma Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2004 Location: SE New England Posts: 620	The way to do it is to run 4-5 cases through the process. Remove and inspect each case between each process. ( Again, how many/what brand dies are you running?) This way you'll be able to ID exactly at what stage the crumpling is ocuring. Not adding enough bell to the case mouth can cause it, as can elongated cases bottoming out in the sizing die and/or criping die. All can be fixed with adjustments once you know where the issue is.

February 23, 2006, 05:30 PM	#13
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Seat the bulets without crimping, then crimp as the final step. An extra step but eliminates the problem you describe. Maybe all your cases are not the same length, either. If you seat/crimp in one step, the longer case may crumble. Doing it separately prevents that.

February 24, 2006, 02:38 PM	#14
dmented692006 Member Join Date: January 21, 2006 Posts: 60	im still not sure exactly how to crimp. i have lee carbide 3 set dies and i think i fixed the problem, i adjuted the top screw on the bullet seater and it seems ok now

February 25, 2006, 01:02 PM	#16
redhawk41 Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2005 Location: Red Desert Posts: 819	It took me a few tries to get the Lee seater die set up properly. Here are the steps I follow now that I have figured it out: 1) Screw in die a few turns. 2) Run sized and belled case into die. 3) Screw in die until you feel it hit the case mouth, then back out slightly. Tighten the lock ring. 4) Unscrew bullet seater adjustment (top screw) almost the whole way. 5) Seat bullet and check OAL. Screw in bullet seater adjustment and reseat bullet, repeat until the proper OAL is achieved. IME the Lee bullet seating dies have a crimping shoulder that interferes with the case if the die is screwed in to far. Practice on some cases without powder or primer until you get the die adjusted properly. __________________ {empty thought cloud}

February 25, 2006, 01:10 PM	#17
redhawk41 Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2005 Location: Red Desert Posts: 819	One more thought I also purchased a Lee Factory Crimp Die and crimp in a seperate step. Highly recommended. __________________ {empty thought cloud}

February 25, 2006, 01:26 PM	#18
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	I don't recommend it. If you use the proper diameter lead bullet in your semi, the FCD will reduce that diameter during the crimping process. Now you have an undersized bullet. There is no need for the FCD. A properly adjusted seater coupled with a properly adjusted standard crimp die works fine.