The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 4, 2007, 03:53 PM   #1
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,882
Video#2: Multiple COM hit from several LEO's guns and walking on...

Here is one more striking video for the believers in any such thing as stopping power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmQFu8xiTM

It is also very interesting for it's different perspectives from different camea angles.

BUT: Most important for this forum. That guy is being hit a dozen times by several LEO's guns from 10ft COM and keeps on walking and walking and turing with his gun. If I see it right, what finally dropped him was a shot to the spine from the left officer's gun from 2ft distance.

Just forget the idea of stopping power.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 04:43 PM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
It said in the video that the guy fired a shot but I've seen that tape before and it was a cell phone or a remote control. Just for info sake - not a criticism.

One might note that the guy hardly moves when hit until he drops.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 04:56 PM   #3
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
"Just forget the idea of stopping power"

AMEN!
OBIWAN is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 04:59 PM   #4
Kentucky Deer Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 110
Yeah, I have seen that video before on Most Shocking I think. They said that all he had was a cell phone or remote. But that is crazy, especially the restraint of the first officer to fire when he was right up in the guys face. The guy obviously pointed something at the officer and he still hadn't fired yet. Hats off...
__________________
It's all fun and games until a piece of hot brass goes down your shirt...

Imagine if every outdoorsman taught the sport to 2 young people -----> What are you doing to save our sport?
Kentucky Deer Hunter is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 05:09 PM   #5
Prophet
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2006
Location: Great State of TEXAS
Posts: 244
Wow that cop firing all the rounds just wasted him and his partner or the other LEO was right there trying to grab the guys weapon. I'd be pissed if I were him and once we got out of public i'd be wipping his ass for firing so damn close to me.
Prophet is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 05:23 PM   #6
Slugthrower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2006
Posts: 823
I watched this several times. Paused is several times. I believe this man was in fact armed with a small handgun. Looks to be a .22 or 32 caliber pistol.

This guy entered view of camera #2 at 23:33:51 , after 9 seconds. At 23:34:00 he is down. From what I saw , he was possibly shot by 10 to 12 rounds.

I would say after 5 or 6 he was the walking dead anyway.

This man had to be high on something. Appears that the closest officer was the one who hit his CNS. Handguns can be lethal but they aren't great stoppers. Good video to illustrate how effective a handgun really is. Placement is paramount.
Slugthrower is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 05:56 PM   #7
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
Personally I think the good Lord planned it that way

Rifles are deadly...but it is harder to shoot yourself

Handguns make it easy to inflict damage on your person but you have to be dilligent in order to actually kill yourself
OBIWAN is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 06:13 PM   #8
Tokamak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Posts: 265
It was NOT a gun.

I saw that video, too on America's Most Shocking or something. It was in fact a cell phone that the guy was pointing like a gun. The officer ducking gives the impression that there was a shot. There was not.

However, they were in fear for their lives and were totally justified. It looks like suicide by cop to me.
Tokamak is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 06:25 PM   #9
M14fan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 777
Stopping power

I am a firm believer in the theory that 'Stopping power' is 99% shot placement and 1% caliber.
__________________
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington
M14fan is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 07:51 PM   #10
RoyJackson
Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2006
Posts: 22
"However, they were in fear for their lives and were totally justified."

I'm not buying that.
A cop needs to have enough restraint to refrain from firing until he knows there is a threat
If any civilian (CCW holder or not) shot an unarmed person, mostly likely the "fear for my life" defense wouldn't fly.

I'm a gun owner and love them...but there have been too many cop shootings of unarmed persons or massive overkill (50 or more shots fired at an unarmed individual).

I've no idea what this guy was carying...it looked like a gun to me in that grainy flick. But the cop on the scene was within inches of the man shot. That cop should have been able to determine the real threat, if any.
RoyJackson is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 08:57 PM   #11
firechicken
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2006
Location: Savannah, MO
Posts: 224
Quote:
It was in fact a cell phone that the guy was pointing like a gun. The officer ducking gives the impression that there was a shot. There was not.
20 seconds into the video, you can see the empty casing that was ejected from the BG's "cell phone". It's not hard to see.

Edit: After further review, It could have come from the officer's gun.
firechicken is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 09:18 PM   #12
KingofAttendance
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: September 4, 2006
Posts: 100
i would have just tackled him, there were two of them and at least two more were close by
KingofAttendance is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 09:59 PM   #13
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,944
"A cop needs to have enough restraint to refrain from firing until he knows there is a threat"

How does he know for sure? After he gets shot?

I had to watch the video and freeze-frame it to see that wasn't a gun. These guys didn't have time to make that kind of decision. I'd have done the same thing in that officer's shoes. Actually, I might have shot him a lot sooner.

"But the cop on the scene was within inches of the man shot. That cop should have been able to determine the real threat, if any."

It looked like a gun to him. See him duck?
wayneinFL is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 10:21 PM   #14
BreacherUp!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2005
Posts: 566
Quote:
I've no idea what this guy was carying...it looked like a gun to me in that grainy flick
You made the point yourself. And you have the luxury to stop, pause and rewind the video to determine if the guy was armed. As wayne said, the cop ducked and obviously thought so. If you want to tackle the guy, that is YOUR decision. However, that deicion does not find fault witht the cop who decided his life was in danger.
The threshold for the application of deadly force often times is different for any given person.
__________________
Life's tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid.
BreacherUp! is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 01:24 AM   #15
perpster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2006
Posts: 185
Hits?

Quote:
BUT: Most important for this forum. That guy is being hit a dozen times by several LEO's guns from 10ft COM and keeps on walking and walking and turing with his gun. If I see it right, what finally dropped him was a shot to the spine from the left officer's gun from 2ft distance.
Just wondering how we know how many hits there were, and how many were on center mass?
perpster is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 08:23 AM   #16
Steve in PA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1999
Location: Northeastern PA
Posts: 755
"However, they were in fear for their lives and were totally justified."

I'm not buying that.
A cop needs to have enough restraint to refrain from firing until he knows there is a threat
If any civilian (CCW holder or not) shot an unarmed person, mostly likely the "fear for my life" defense wouldn't fly.

I'm a gun owner and love them...but there have been too many cop shootings of unarmed persons or massive overkill (50 or more shots fired at an unarmed individual).

I've no idea what this guy was carying...it looked like a gun to me in that grainy flick. But the cop on the scene was within inches of the man shot. That cop should have been able to determine the real threat, if any."

Spoken by someone who obviuosly has no idea what he is talking about. Please enlighten us to your expertise on dealing with individuals in these type situations.
__________________
Steve
Steve in PA is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 12:34 PM   #17
Tokamak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Posts: 265
I could be wrong

I thought they said on the TV show that it was a cell phone. I could be mis-remembering.
Tokamak is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 04:55 PM   #18
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
They said - cell phone - on the show.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 06:35 PM   #19
BreacherUp!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2005
Posts: 566
Quote:
A cop needs to have enough restraint to refrain from firing until he knows there is a threat
Wrong. A cop needs to have PC to believe that his life or another's is in imminant danger of death or serious bodily harm.
And it is based on the totality of the circumstances, and based on those circumstances, would a reasonable person react in the same manner.
Based on that video, a reasonable person would believe that the guy who just led a pursuit, pointed a weapon and not a cell phone, especillay in that split second.
__________________
Life's tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid.
BreacherUp! is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 07:46 PM   #20
perpster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2006
Posts: 185
Cell Phone Guns

I have seen LE bulletins about cell phones and pagers (and other things like belt buckles, brushes, combs, lighters, etc) that have been modified into 1 or 2 shot firearms. I don't have any links, but I have personally seen the bulletins along with color photos of the converted guns.
perpster is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 07:57 PM   #21
chemist308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Location: Pocono Mtns, PA
Posts: 587
From the last part of the clip, the officer did not start firing until the suspect swung what appeared to be a weapon around to point at the officer's partner. The officer fired in defense of his partner as his partner ducked. It looked like a clean shoot, but I don't understand why he continued to fire after the suspect lowered what appeared to be a weapon.
__________________
critters: the other red meat
Live in PA? PA Firearms Owners Association
chemist308 is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 09:03 PM   #22
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,928
Pointing a cell-phone (or anything else) at an armed man who is pointing a gun at you is not a survival trait.
Quote:
...I don't understand why he continued to fire after the suspect lowered what appeared to be a weapon.
I suspect that once the shooting started and the criminal didn't immediately respond or comply, then the officer started getting panicky. The idea of coming up against someone who's apparently impervious to bullets is not a fun one to contemplate. It's got to be much worse to suddenly experience it in person.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old January 6, 2007, 04:53 AM   #23
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,882
Quote:
...I don't understand why he continued to fire after the suspect lowered what appeared to be a weapon.
He didn't drop it, surrender and put his hands behind his back or neck, did he?

In a video, or a fight for life, a cell-phone, a knife or whatever can easily be mistaken for a gun, espacially for a gun with black/blue frame and stainless slide...

If LEOs point guns at you and you do anything else but surrender moving slowly, you do commit suicide and the LEO can't be blamed. They are not obliged to take chances with their lifes or the lifes of innocent bystanders.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 6, 2007, 10:17 AM   #24
tlm225
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 961
If you'll notice, as the suspect is walking away then turns and points the cell phone, the officer he points it at ducks. That is a VERY strong indicator that the officer, at that moment, believed the cell phone to be a gun based upon the actions of the suspect.
Thank God that the actions of the officer are judged based upon what he knew or reasonably believed at the time of the incident, not by a bunch of wannabe experts who make a decision on his actions in hindsight.
__________________
All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
tlm225 is offline  
Old January 6, 2007, 06:37 PM   #25
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,882
Quote:
Thank God that the actions of the officer are judged based upon what he knew or reasonably believed at the time of the incident, not by a bunch of wannabe experts who make a decision on his actions in hindsight.
Well spoken!
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08791 seconds with 10 queries