Aiming with front sight?

[mellow_c]

I've always heard you should always focus on your front sight. Especially for speed with a hand gun. I like to shoot with both eyes open when shooting quickly with my hand guns, although if I try to "focus" on the front sight like this, I find myself seeing double of the target. Whats the proper way to shoot by focusing on the front sight?

[evan1293]

I agree that the front sight is key. At contact distances out to about 5 yards I usually just have a hard focus on the target, but from 5 out to about 10 yards its just front sight for me.

I can shoot with both eyes open no problem, but everyone, no matter who you are, can only focus on one object at a time. If you focus on the target, your FS will be blurry, if you focus on the FS, your target will be blurry. What most people do, which works fine for some is they focus on the target, bring the sights into the line of sight and imediately shift their focus to the front sight and break the shot.

For me I tend to shoot from CAR and one of the advantages of this system is that it allows you to focus on the FS without seeing double of the target. Conversely, the shooter could focus on the target and still see one FS. This works by holding the FS within your natural focal distance. Also the nose blocks out one eye from picking up the sight, so there is no problem with eye dominance and trying to shoot with both eyes open. Here's a short video I did some time back on the subject.

http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/e...t=MOV02744.flv

Theres a big blurry spot on the video which I appologize for but hopefully it will at least show you that you can still place combat accurate shots with only the FS.

Hope this helps!

[mellow_c]

CAR?

Thanx! good info!

[evan1293]

...And before I get myself in trouble I better mention that CAR is A WAY...not THE WAY to shoot and properly focus on the front sight. Shooting from ISO or weaver, a front sight focus (like using a bead on a shotgun) can be utilized to shoot quickly. Heres another video I made of shooting multiple, semi rapid shots into a target, hitting center mass. In this video Im tracking the front sight only. My neutral grip and stance is working to help keep the front sight in a consistent track during the shooting process. My focus is on the front sight and once I see the sight settle back down I break the next shot. Practice helps the eyes to focus on what they need to for the given shot. After sometime, this will become subconsious which will enable high speed shooting.


http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/e...urrent=COM.flv

[mellow_c]

I've been practicing with a nice little Airsoft pistol modeled after a 9mm lately while I watch tv going to bed. It holds JUST like my Smith and Weson Sigma 9mm. And the sights are pretty much the same too. Just a cheep Toy I got at walmart a couple years ago because a few friends had them and they would always shoot me when I went to their house. SO I had to get my own, with it being a single shot, then pull the slide back for another shot, I got good at shooting them in the hands, and knees, and all the painful places.

Anyway, just working with the sight picture on that thing, not even shooting it, just working on focusing on the front sight with my eyes open has helped. I finally corrected my grip on the gun as well. I'd been overlapping my support hand thumb over my strong hand thumb for years. Now I've gotten used to laying them both straight (mostly) with the support thumb under the strong thumb.

Thanx again for the vids

[tc556guy]

I agree that the front sight is key. At contact distances out to about 5 yards I usually just have a hard focus on the target, but from 5 out to about 10 yards its just front sight for me.

Not to snipe, but at those distances you should be shooting entirely by point shooting. It'll take all of a couple of seconds for someone to cover 5-10 yards coming at you. get that gun out there and neutralize that target. Out past 12-13 yards, sure, start grabbing a flash front sight picture. Not at 5 yards though.

[cschwanz]

Ive had similar probs with the front sight idea. If i focus too hard on the sight, the target becomes blurry. i have started doing what someone else posted, get set on target, bring sights level, switch focus onto the front sight, break the shot off. I still need practice, but im getting better.

kinda off topic, but not really: can someone explain the CAR? im confused how it works? is it what the guy was doing in the first video with the 2 shots, back up, 2 shots, back up, etc? How does is work?

[wjkuleck]

If i focus too hard on the sight, the target becomes blurry.

Exactly! And that's the way it's supposed to be.

At the Small Arms Firing School in '96 the service team shooters did a terrific demo showing why sight alignment means everything. So long as you shoot at the center of the blur, you'll score Xs every time.

Regards,

Walt

[rocinante]

I am new at shooting and the focus on the front sight is just now beginning to register and getting results. At first it seemed counter intuitive to me but now I make an effort to get the front,back,target lined up but keep focusing on keeping the front post steady when I squeeze the trigger and I am shooting better. That and my CO2 pistol in the backyard might make me almost a competent pistolero yet. I have no clue how to shooting with both eyes open with iron sights.

[wjkuleck]

I have no clue how to shooting with both eyes open with iron sights

That comes easier with practice, so long as you just do it and don't think about it. It's a bit more challenging if you're cross-dominant as I am, but after fifty years or so I just don't think about it .

When rifle shooting, I shoot almost exclusively with aperture rear sights, so aligning the rear sight is an automatic function of the autonomous nervous system. Front sight sharp, center of blur, press.

Regards,

Walt
PS In a defense situation (training for it, anyway) I have to consciously get off the front sight after the shot(s), the practice of "Front sight focus" having been so deeply habituated.

[alizeefan]

For me I tend to shoot from CAR and one of the advantages of this system is that it allows you to focus on the FS without seeing double of the target.

I basically agree with most of what you are saying. I use front sight focus at all but contact distances. I was wondering though how using CAR allows you to focus on FS and target at same time. The eye's should still only be able to focus at one distance at a time.

Not ragging on you or anything and I have no personal experience with CAR so I was just curious .

[wjkuleck]

It's not polite to use an acronym without spelling it out the first time .

Third time asked; what is CAR?

Thanks!

Regards,

Walt

[matthew temkin]

This is C.A.R.

http://www.sabretactical.com/

[Lavid2002]

Are you talking about the ar15 CAR? Other than that im stumped, fourth time asked, whats car? :P

[evan1293]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not polite to use an acronym without spelling it out the first time .

Third time asked; what is CAR?

Sorry, its been discussed so many times on so many forums I assumed (wrongly) that everyone knew...my bad. Center Axis Relock. For info on CAR check out www.sabretactical.com / www.ipdsystems.com. There are articles on sabre tactical that will explain the system in detail. And yes, in the first video I was shooting CAR, as I often tend to do.

Not to snipe, but at those distances you should be shooting entirely by point shooting.

Not true in every case. I've spent a great deal of time out with the shot timer and have compared my accuracy and times to point shooting and for me I was always just about equally as fast and I tended to be consistently more accurate when I picked up the front sight. Remember, I'm talking about a flash sight picture not a bullseye sight picture. If your eyes are good it literally takes less than a few hundreths of a second to pick up the front sight. Even if your piont shooting, at 5 to 7 yards you'll probably have the gun somewhat near or in your line of sight. All Im talking about here is basically point shooting coupled with an instant visual conformation of the front sight. Virtually no time lost in this process.

I was wondering though how using CAR allows you to focus on FS and target at same time.

You know what...my first statement can be modified somewhat to get my point across a little better. Here was my initial statement:

For me I tend to shoot from CAR and one of the advantages of this system is that it allows you to focus on the FS without seeing double of the target. Conversely, the shooter could focus on the target and still see one FS. This works by holding the FS within your natural focal distance. Also the nose blocks out one eye from picking up the sight, so there is no problem with eye dominance and trying to shoot with both eyes open. Here's a short video I did some time back on the subject.

Okay let me try this again a little better. Basically CAR illiminates the double vision caused by focusing on one obect and not the other. Try this exersise...extend your index finger straight out in front of you. Have your finger pointing to the ceiling and line up your dominant eye with your finger and an object 10-30' away. Have your face squared up to your finger with both eyes open. Then focus on your finger and observe what happens to the object...you'll see two of the object. Then without moving anything, shift your focus to the object...you will then see two fingers. This is a problem that can occur when shooting with both eyes open with your dominant eye...double vision can occur.

One of the fundamentals in CAR is the use of aiming with the eye opposite to the hand that is firing the gun (ie: right hand shooting, left eye aiming.) This is true regardless of eye dominance. Do the same exercise as above but this time tilt the head so that only the left eye is lined up with the finger and the right eye is partially blocked out by the nose. (This is what occurs when shooting CAR.) You will notice that as you shift your focus from your finger to the object, there remains only one of each item in your vision. Although it remains true that you can only focus on one or the other at any given time, you will no longer observe any double vision as you shift your focus.

[Dragunov54]

You should always make use of your front sight when shooting pistols or non scoped rifles (AR-15's). If you are having double vision, make sure you are aware what your dominate eye is in relation to what hand you are weilding the weapon. I know shooters who are right eye dominate, but shoot left handed and vise versa. Shooting with both eyes open is a great tactical advantage when looking for additional threats, but if its too much of a pain, keep you dominate shooting eye open and close your non. However in your case, your front sight should be razor sharp when aiming onto the target. Not the other way around. If your front sight starts to blur, blink a few times, take a few breaths to get oxygen back into the brain, or take your head off the stock and readjust. Before squeezing the trigger, the front sight must be in focus. However, this will not be the case if you are doing defensive point blank shooting (< 1 foot from the target).

[evan1293]

For you guys who were wondering about CAR...I've got more vids of CAR on my album. Also type in "center axis relock" on you tube and you'll find about 10-20 videos and demos of this shooting system.

FYI: Center axis relock is the term given to the law enforcement aspect of this shooting system. Immediate Personal Defense Systems (IPDS) is the civillian version. The shooting systems are identical but the training courses are slightly different due to the differing needs/ requirements of police officers vs civillians.

[Bogie]

Try it - it's easer to hang the front sight out there, get a handle on it, and then bring the rear sight to kinda bear on it - And approximate works like a wonder at under 10 yards... You don't need a 2" group - you just need slide lock at center mass.

[tc556guy]

Quote:
Not to snipe, but at those distances you should be shooting entirely by point shooting.

Not true in every case. I've spent a great deal of time out with the shot timer and have compared my accuracy and times to point shooting and for me I was always just about equally as fast and I tended to be consistently more accurate when I picked up the front sight. Remember, I'm talking about a flash sight picture not a bullseye sight picture. If your eyes are good it literally takes less than a few hundreths of a second to pick up the front sight. Even if your piont shooting, at 5 to 7 yards you'll probably have the gun somewhat near or in your line of sight. All Im talking about here is basically point shooting coupled with an instant visual conformation of the front sight. Virtually no time lost in this process.

Fine for range work where no ones shooting back at you. In real world shooting at that distance, people almost always revert to point shooting/ crouched isocoles stance. I stand by my point that at 5 yards, you are going to be focusing at the threat; you aren't going to have time to be looking at your sights.

[mellow_c]

This is gona take alot more practice! To bad 9mm are getting expencive. I'll just have to use my Buckmark.22 instead

[evan1293]

I stand by my point that at 5 yards, you are going to be focusing at the threat; you aren't going to have time to be looking at your sights.

I don't agree that you won't have time, because like I said it really takes no time at all. I tested that for my self, and found time not to be an issue when shooting with the FS. For others, you may be correct, but I think that with much practice, they would become just as fast focusing on the FS as they are when shooting without the sights.

When talking about a gunfight and not just a shooting exercise, I do FULLY agree with you that you or I probably would not look at our sights in a fight at these distances. Thank God I've never been in a real life or death gunfight, but from my experience with force on force I found what you said to be true. When I had to shoot a threat(s) in FOF, I would notice my sights only in my peripheral vision when shooting iso, but my primary focus was on the threat. This is a big reason why I found CAR to work so well for me. Firing the weapon (pistol in this case) in the CAR extended position, places the front sight right in my natural focal point. The natural focal point is the distance you would hold a newspaper away from your eyes to read it. Its the distance in which you feel most comfortable focusing on something with your eyes. When I fire my gun in this fashion, I still focus on the threat because my natrual response is to get completely fixated on the threat, specifically the threat's weapon. Even though I am focusing on the theat, I can still very clearly see one front sight superimposed over my target because the front sight is held at my natural focal point.

[tc556guy]

When talking about a gunfight and not just a shooting exercise, I do FULLY agree with you that you or I probably would not look at our sights in a fight at these distances. Thank God I've never been in a real life or death gunfight, but from my experience with force on force I found what you said to be true. When I had to shoot a threat(s) in FOF, I would notice my sights only in my peripheral vision when shooting iso, but my primary focus was on the threat.

I would hope that everyone range time and training revolves around preparing themselves for how they will act in a real encounter and not a range exercise. If you wont be looking at the sights in combat, you should not be training that way. Now, if you are strictly a Camp Perry-type competitive shooter, I can understand that your training skews towards the habits that will work in that environment. Hopefully those shooters recognize that their training is giving them some bad habits that may carry over to a real-world DPF scenario.

[evan1293]

I dont think theres any problem with this method of practice because your still programming yourself to bring the gun into your line of sight. Whether you place your focus on the FS during a shooting exercise or on the threat during a fight, your gun is going to need to be in the same position ( in your line of sight) at 5-10 yards, most likely. Again, when I've done force on force and I tried punching out into an ISO type stance, I still was getting very fast and combat-accurate hits by focusing on the threat, even though in practice I tend to use a flash sight picture at these distances. The reason being is that my training has programed me to bring the gun up into my line of sight and regardless of whether or not I visually confirm my sight(s), Im still able to place rounds on target. If the circumstance allows me to confirm my sights then I always will do so to gain that edge in accuracy without sacrificing speed.

[evan1293]

In real world shooting at that distance, people almost always revert to point shooting/ crouched isocoles stance

Notice below the many and varying types of reactions to the "threat." Everyone reacts differently to a perceived threat.






Taking one in the chin is not the best option by the way!

[tc556guy]

Notice below the many and varying types of reactions to the "threat." Everyone reacts differently to a perceived threat.

Actually, your pics prove my point. In general, almost everyone in those pics is reacting similarly.
Besides, we are not talking about baseball bats, are we?