Powder measures

[Mike Irwin]

Everyone settle down. NOW.

Or I will do the settling.

In the past 40 years I've loaded in excess of 100,000 rounds - handgun, rifle and shotshell.

Better than 95% of that loading g has been done with Lee presses, dies, priming tools, and measures.

I have had 0 failures of equipment in that time. I did wear out one of the aluminum based turret presses by turning .308s into .243s.

I buy Lee products because they work, work well, and last.

I buy Lee products

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Rifletom]

Mike Irwin. Understood. No problem.
You staff people here run a pretty easy going forum here. I'll certainly abide.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Aren't they long out of production?

Vega? Yes. I was lucky to get this. It uses standard B&M measures.

B&M is back in-business. I stopped in there a few years ago and talked to them. Their old measures can be bought on Ebay for <$80.

[Jim Watson]

Precision.
I did a little googling and found a discussion of single granule powder value.
Doing a lot of dividing down from larger charge changes, it was agreed that one granule of Varget (.025 grain) was worth about one fps in a .308. So what does that do for your trajectory, group size or ladder test node?

Equipment.
My first powder measure was a Redding No 3 Master. It was ok with service and hunting rifle loads. I still use it for black powder but on the drop and trickle system like the Sharps Rifle Company told me to do "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale." Must work ok, I get lower ES and SD than any but the very best smokeless.

I had a Ohaus Duo-Measure with two different size cavities in the same drum. It was not a useful gimmick.

Most of my single stage volumetric loading is with a Uniflo small drum with micrometer adjustment.

The Bonanza with the peculiar angled chamber/handle is probably the most precise measure I have with extruded powder but it is tedious to adjust.

I load for F-T/R with a PACT dispenser system. It runs to tolerance of setpoint -0, +0.1 grain as read on the PACT scale or Lyman balance, which is good enough for me.

A friend found the PACT unsatisfactory and went to the RCBS Chargemaster. But he now second guesses it and is tweaking loads down to the granule. Is that why he is a Master and I am a Sharpshooter?

Plastic:
Leaving double base powder in a measure rotted the cheap acrylic hopper. I no longer recall if it was the Redding or RCBS. My Dillons must not be the same plastic, they are discolored by graphite but not etched, nor was the powder bottle on a MEC shotshell loader. I put a glass liner in my CH measure, it was getting yellow fast when new.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I did a little googling and found a discussion of single granule powder value.

Doing a lot of dividing down from larger charge changes, it was agreed that one granule of Varget (.025 grain) was worth about one fps in a .308. So what does that do for your trajectory..

About 0.01" at 500 yards. Now do the math with what was stated to be sufficient in this thread. My Chargemaster is off by +- 0.160gr.

0.160gr. x 2 = 0.320gr / 0.025gr = 12.8 FPS

12.8 FPS at 500 yards comes down to 0.6".

As I said, load consistency is one of many variables. If you can eliminate one through proper equipment, that is a no-brainer in my book.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

[McCarthy]

PS: 2800 FPS out of 45gr of Varget would be 62.22 FPS for 1.000gr, hence 1.56 FPS per 0.025gr kernel.

[Unclenick]

When running ballistics programs, it also has to be born in mind that they assume a perfectly rigid barrel. Real guns move during recoil, and the movement starts before the bullet clears the muzzle. A lower velocity means longer barrel time, with the result the barrel has more time to move by the time the bullet actually leaves. So whether or not you see the computer-predicted drop on the target may or may not be born out in practice. In the end, you need to shoot to find out.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

When running ballistics programs, it also has to be born in mind that they assume a perfectly rigid barrel. Real guns move during recoil, and the movement starts before the bullet clears the muzzle. A lower velocity means longer barrel time, with the result the barrel has more time to move by the time the bullet actually leaves. So whether or not you see the computer-predicted drop on the target may or may not be born out in practice. In the end, you need to shoot to find out.

I know. There is obviously an entire chain of subsequent consequences, some of them enhancing or even multiplying the initial effect. I was just replying on the same very basic level introduced by Jim.

Either way: I do understand that this was never within the scope of the OP, and only came forward when I tried to make clear why the Chargemaster is not a precision devise, which led to explaining why a $1,500 lab grade scale makes sense to verify issues as well as top level handloading.

Somebody shooting 10k rounds a months on pistol training and matches will find the answer in a 1050. I'm well past mass production, I can get by with a box of 50 rifle rounds for several hours at the range. Precision and perfection is much more fulfilling than anything quantity based, at least for me.

I'm kinda surprised that so few own the Redding 10X measure for pistol loads around this forum. That measure and a good beam scale is really the golden standard IMO in that price bracket, and makes sense for a beginner coming from his first experiences with the rather outdated scooping sets.

[hounddawg]

I think what some here are missing is that a powder throw is nothing more than an adjustable Lee dipper. Both dippers and manual operated throws measure powder by volume not weight like the Chargemaster and Auto Throw. Any variation in the powder column results in a different "pack" Fine powders will give more consistent weights for the same reason a dipper of flour will be more consistent weight wise than a dipper of rice. The air spaces between the rice kernels will be more inconsistent than the air spaces between something of a finer texture such as flour. Most throws use a vertical cavity fill ( RCBS, Hornady, Lyman, Redding etc) while a couple like the Johnson Quick Throw use a horizontal cavity. The Johnson supposedly has a beveled scraper that reduces if not eliminates the cutting of stick powder I think Dillon measures also load horizontally but I may be wrong there.

Other than that most brands of mechanical throws only differ in fit and finish and how the adjustment screw(s) are marked for repeat ability. Sorry to jump on the sacred cow of the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge mentality and but can throw to .02 grains repeatedly if with fine powder. It might get pretty consisten .1s and even dead on using the typical reloading scale if you keep the reservoir full, use baffles and tap the unit between throws. I can get good results with mine using CFE 223 or TAC but on a sensitive scale you see how far they are off in both directions.

A 500 dollar Harrel uses exactly the same principle as a 30 dollar Lee. It is nothing more than a hole whose volume can be adjusted that gets filled with powder from a hopper using gravity. The Harrel just looks whole lot prettier in the process and is smoother due to the metal construction and bearings. Not too mention the repeatability enabled by it's click system. It's like the difference between a Cadillac and a bottom end starter car. Both will get you from point A to point B though.

Google some of the mainstream throws user manuals and look at the exploded parts diagrams and see if I am lying

edited for bad speeling

[Unclenick]

McCarthy,

That's an expected precision call. As a rule of thumb, good pistol accuracy is about four times what the moa equivalent expectations for rifles are. People feel pretty darn good about a pistol that holds an inch at 25 yards and a rifle that holds an inch at 100 yards. The feel nearly ecstatic if the pistol holds an inch at 50 yards and the rifle holds half an inch at 100 yards. Drilling below that is what really starts to bring specialized equipment and practices on board.

I believe in making development loads as perfect as I possibly can; cases segregated by wall runout and prepped, primer seating depth measured for 0.003" reconsolidation, bullets seated to minimum runout, powder weighed on the lab scale and spread and carefully dispensed the same way to achieve matching powder packing.

But once the load is developed I try it out with different elements lacking. No case prep. Does it still work as well? Simple volumetric charge dispensing. Did the groups open up? No check for finished cartridge runout. Am I getting any fliers? Run through on one of the Dillons. Did the velocity SD increase? Does it still group just as well?

With rifle, I've seen a number of examples in which dropping one or more of the careful loading steps showed up clearly on paper. For pistol shooting 25-50 yards, it's been pretty inconclusive trying to distinguish the "perfect" rounds from the Dillon loads. My Encore pistol with scope will show up lack of concentricity, but it's in the 50 yard sub-inch range. For any handgun I own other than that one, the 10X would be a tool in search of a problem to solve.

Problems involving contribution to group diameter each create an error standard deviation on each axis. SD's add as the square root of the sum of the squares, so if I have a one-inch gun I can make out errors 16 times smaller than I can with a 4" gun.

[hounddawg]

But once the load is developed I try it out with different elements lacking. No case prep. Does it still work as well? Simple volumetric charge dispensing.

The goal when developing a load for long range and precision is to find flat spots in the velocity curve where you can vary by .1 or .2 in either direction and produce almost identical velocities. Once you find that flat spot you can rely on a good throw if you use good technique and a fine grained powder for short range closer than 300 - 400 yards.

to do that though you have to use a fine resolution scale so that in the development phase the charge needs to be accurate to + or - .04 grains which is 2 to 3 kernels of Varget. I try and get it closer than that even. Otherwise out of 5 test loads the individual charges could be as far as .3 grains apart and you can miss some good nodes. I use stick so I throw low and trickle up so I doubt I will ever stop weighing every load but loading accurate throw and go ammo is feasible with a fine powder and good technique even on a $30 dollar Lee. There are some good hacks out there like your baffle templates and running some graphite through the throw and dryer sheets etc.

[RC20]

I own two Electric Powder dispenser. They have pluses and minus but I find the minus vastly lower than the plus. I also have an old RBS dispenser.

The old RCBS was erratic, not sure how it could not be, more so with stick powders but as I am focused on tiny holes in the target (for my own enjoyment) I do want to maintain under 3/10 accuracy. More so when I am playing with a load and want to do a 5/10 or a 4/10 interval as to dial into the mid part of an accuracy node.

So, the MO for the RCBS was to underweight, trickle up to what I wanted on an electronics. Ok, slow but ok. Then I got a Lyman scale that had the built on trickler and that worked better but still same drill just more convenient.

My brother owns the RCBS charge master and it still seems to be the best of the lot (actually he owns two). With two you can load very fast.

I got a great deal on a Lyman Gen 6, its decent, reasonably fast, accuracy varies about 2/10, sort of ok. If its fairly consistent I can under set or overset and hit my target point, or if erratic I can set under, reach in with a small screwdriver and pull out grains till spot on.

I also have a Horandy. Its spot on accurate but you have to fiddle with adjustments on the program to get it reasonably fast. Somewhat annoying but it has a beep to let you know its on, nice, Lyman does not. Also annoying is some adjust to tune go away when you clear the load. Still like it a lot better than hand.

Do you own a Chargemaster? No? I do. This is how it looked like after being used just a few times. And yes, that is engrained and doesn't even come out when scraped with a screw driver.

You have a problem. Its a one off type. either a product defect or something you caused. If it was RCBS you should have contacted RCBS when it occurred. They would have replaced it (warranty, now 1 year not unlimited).

Stuff happens and an entire product should not be condemned based on one sample. Too many people have these and its not ever been an issue.

Failure to use a warranty is on the individual not the company or its product.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

The goal when developing a load for long range and precision is to find flat spots in the velocity curve where you can vary by .1 or .2 in either direction and produce almost identical velocities. Once you find that flat spot you can rely on a good throw if you use good technique and a fine grained powder for short range closer than 300 - 400 yards.

to do that though you have to use a fine resolution scale so that in the development phase the charge needs to be accurate to + or - .04 grains which is 2 to 3 kernels of Varget. I try and get it closer than that even. Otherwise out of 5 test loads the individual charges could be as far as .3 grains apart and you can miss some good nodes. I use stick so I throw low and trickle up so I doubt I will ever stop weighing every load but loading accurate throw and go ammo is feasible with a fine powder and good technique even on a $30 dollar Lee. There are some good hacks out there like your baffle templates and running some graphite through the throw and dryer sheets etc.

I almost forgot.

Since you never came through with any proof that a Redding 10X (that you don't even own) can't throw better than +- 0.1 gr, I will do it for you.


Just done:

[hounddawg]

sounds like those people paying $5000 for a Promethius and 400+ for Harrels should Ebay them and go buy a $100 Redding

now try some Varget or 4895

[cw308]

I've been using the ChargeMaster1500 for 12+ years , looks like new . May not be exact on every throw but for me close enough for pistol loads . I double check the load by dumping the CM charge into the pan on the GemPro250 to fine tune for rifle loads . I would want my charge to be as accurate as possible but with all the other variables in reloading , how exact can we make every round to each other. I went down that road , over thinking wasn't enjoyable . I'm close as possible without the headaches , my groups are still good . Having fun shooting at the bench .

[hounddawg]

I've been using the ChargeMaster1500 for 12+ years , looks like new . May not be exact on every throw but for me close enough for pistol loads . I double check the load by dumping the CM charge into the pan on the GemPro250 to fine tune for rifle loads . I would want my charge to be as accurate as possible but with all the other variables in reloading , how exact can we make every round to each other. I went down that road , over thinking wasn't enjoyable . I'm close as possible without the headaches , my groups are still good . Having fun shooting at the bench .

If you have a balanced load + or - .1 is all you need

[cw308]

hounddawg
This year I'm sticking with the same load , powder an bullet . Only this year instead of using the same brass 30 cases going average 24 reloads. I'm using 3 different brands of brass 30 each cycling each brand every week . Makes shooting enjoyable ,working on form instead of tweaking my reloads . I can weigh my loads using the GemPro250 to 40.84 gr. of IMR 4064 stick powder . Works for me .

Chris

[hounddawg]

Same here CW. I have 3 good long range loads worked up for the .260 and a .223 load that is damn near bench rest quality at mid range.

I was thinking about adding another caliber/cartridge and smacked myself in the head with a brick. Woke up with a heck of a headache but no more crazy thoughts about how much fun it would be to start from scratch again

[cw308]

hd
You made me laugh .

Chris

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

sounds like those people paying $5000 for a Promethius and 400+ for Harrels should Ebay them and go buy a $100 Redding

now try some Varget or 4895

You are talking again from tools you don't own. Go figure.

[pricedo]

I use the set of 15 yellow Lee powder dippers for just about all my hunting loads.
Not worried about fractions of a MOA with my 45-70 for instance.
It’s a simple process: imurse the dipper in the powder and let it fill up and then scrape it level with a playing card. DEFINITELY NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
Very accurate and not subject to mechanical failure or malfunction like an electronic or mechanical powder measure.
How can a cup made of solid plastic malfunction.
I can get within a small fraction of a grain in accuracy.
A fraction of a grain is irrelevant in say a charge of 53 grains of IMR-3031.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by McCarthy

The 2 C-H powder measures are $55 and $100. That's far from being expensive.

Different people have different circumstances. $55 or $100 may not be expensive to you but may be expensive to someone else.

Originally Posted by McCarthy

With all due respect, put the Lee Perfect Powder Measure is a low quality tool, made of cheep materials, with mediocre reviews. It is known to leak powder all the time.

I guess my Lee Perfect Powder Measure must be defective, then. I've been using it for more than ten years and it doesn't leak yet.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I guess my Lee Perfect Powder Measure must be defective, then. I've been using it for more than ten years and it doesn't leak yet.

I guess this is just all made up:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ak-fix.321118/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...normal.770695/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...-leaks.760690/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...t-leak.701528/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...e-leak.649544/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...-leaks.651675/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...g-h335.803460/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...powder.287135/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...easure.783488/

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=527052

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=363413

There are tons more. Google is your friend.

[Mike Irwin]

You waited a month to post that? For what reason?

Why not just let it go?

It's known that Lee wiper measures tend to leak a bit. That's inherent in the design.

Replacing the wiper every once in awhile and keeping it properly snugged up does wonders to mitigate that.

Some powders tend to leak more.

Oddly enough, my RCBS Uniflow, which cost $55 in 1984 ($140 in today's money), also leaks with some powders.

[Unclenick]

I'll echo what Mike said. I disassemble and clean and lube and reassemble my tools with some regularity, including the two Lee Perfect measures that live in one of my range boxes, and I've never had a serious leak problem with them. If you have a leak problem that doesn't respond to cleaning, burnishing the drum and its journal in the body with graphite or motor mica powder, followed by reassembling and tightening, you might contact Lee to have them look at it and see if you got one with some drum or body warp that is out of tolerance.