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Old March 10, 2018, 06:54 PM   #26
johnwilliamson062
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Thread of the week.

When OP says 30-30, does he mean lever action?
When he says 30-06 does he mean bolt action rifle?
Aren't there 30-30 ARs?
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Old March 10, 2018, 08:17 PM   #27
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I'm partially under the assumption that a lot of people that reference AR don't even know what caliber it is and second if they do assume they only come in 223/556.

I hear the AR-17 shoots even more projectiles than an AR-15.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:02 AM   #28
hdwhit
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Quote:
JoeSixPack wrote:
JFK was killed with a bolt action, not sure type or caliber.
How about Googling it before you post?

6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano. Sprecifically, a model 91/38 chambered in the Italian 6.5x52 cartridge.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:04 AM   #29
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Bamabuilt wrote:
I told this person a killer could use a 30-30 or 30-06 and do similar damage that a AR15 would do.
Why are you getting into an argument with some one whose mind is already made up and who doesn't know what you're talking about? After all, ignorance is not a point of view.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:12 AM   #30
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@hdwhit

Didn't seem that important considering an ar-15 is semi automatic and not a bolt action rifle.
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Old March 11, 2018, 03:32 PM   #31
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Why would he google it when he has a nitpicker to do it for him?

How about a belt fed lever gun? In .223 running M249 boxes. That would add casualties when the news reporters heads exploded as they tried to figure out what it was. NM, they'd just call it an AK.
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Old March 11, 2018, 10:06 PM   #32
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The left wants to focus on guns. BUT, we've had these same guns for 50 years.
WHY all the school and mass shootings NOW? The left doesn't want to talk about
gun control policies like "Gun Free Zones" , enacted recently, which are getting students and teachers killed. Why should they, when we gun owners and the NRA are such handy
scapegoats?
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Old March 12, 2018, 09:37 PM   #33
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One would think that if a person was motivated/dedicated, they would plan out their whatever in such a way as to use what is available to them.

The 9/11 attackers didn't use guns. Timothy McVigh used a truck packed with fertilizer. How many died? 268. A nut killed 38 kids in Bath, MI in 1927 when he blew up a school.

It's not about the death of the kids. If so, where's the outrage when 11 teens die every day due to texting while driving?
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Old March 13, 2018, 02:07 PM   #34
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I do not argue/debate people who have their mind already entrenched in that place of ever lasting ignorance,
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Old March 14, 2018, 01:03 AM   #35
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I am not sure of the question. Are you saying an AR is not a more effective fighting rifle than a 30-06 bolt gun? Because that is obviously not true. The military uses military-pattern rifles because they are more effective at putting out relatively accurate fire at higher rates. And if misused, they are correspondingly more destructive in those scenarios as well. Will other firearms also kill people? Well, duh.
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Old March 14, 2018, 07:19 AM   #36
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To understand why the military adopted the AR15, you have to read Hitchman’s “Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon” and then a history of Project SALVO (which coincidentally mirrored a fascination with “needleguns” in sci-fi writing of that period.)
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Old March 14, 2018, 12:35 PM   #37
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A bolt action is slower to use than a semi automatic. While it does not have to be an AR that is the coolest thing out there and what a significant number of normally non gun users buy (observations at the range)

A semi auto is easier to shoot than a bolt action, a bolt action (30-06) is far more difficult to shoot.

Cartridges are? More depends on what the bullet is (hunting, FMJ)

30-30? Not at all cool, takes some skill to use as well.

So a short handy semi auto (AR, AK, Mini 14) is going to hit more people and kill more than a bolt action rifle will.
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Old March 14, 2018, 09:32 PM   #38
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So a short handy semi auto (AR, AK, Mini 14) is going to hit more people and kill more than a bolt action rifle will.
It is the Indian, not the arrow.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ob0fgc0I7A

And of course, if you have twelve minutes to walk through a crowded structure with everyone huddled up like cattle in a pen, the type of action is pretty irrelevant to even a novice.
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Old March 15, 2018, 12:54 PM   #39
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Of the recent shooting, one was conducted by someone who was military, he killed 69 I believe.

I have handled guns since I was old enough to pick one up, about 7 years old

What you are trying to say is that someone who has little to no familiarity with guns and zero training can do as much damage with a bolt action as a AR semi auto? Really?. That's like saying because I can drive I would be a successful Indy 500 driver.

And putting gas on the fire, herded up like cattle is inflammatory in my opinion.

What would you do if you had a shooter in a theatre? Hmm, that's been done hasn't it.

Concert?

The op procedure is to get the kids were inside classrooms and lock doors (would you rather they all massed in the hallway?)

The death count was relatively low in purely clinical terms of which the parents and kids adult killed won't be dealing with it.

Any time there are people present in numbers its an extremely difficult situation to deal with. Unlike today apps, you can just app them into a safe place.

You can secure a building as best you can (costly but you can do it) you can have public profiling and make sure they don't get guns (difficult ) - you can arm teachers (two of which had NDs yesterday in school) but if you are on the pointy end of the stick how do you minimize the deaths if it occurs? At that point its all you can do.
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Old March 15, 2018, 01:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
What you are trying to say is that someone who has little to no familiarity with guns and zero training can do as much damage with a bolt action as a AR semi auto? Really?. That's like saying because I can drive I would be a successful Indy 500 driver.
What I said was that even a novice can kill a lot of people if his targets are pinned in at close range and unable to run, regardless of the type of firearm used. I also said “It’s the Indian, not the arrow” and added a video to demonstrate that skill is more important than technology.

Somehow, you’ve apparently taken those two separate ideas and squashed them into a single malformed idea that you attributed to me. Do you not understand why these are two distinct ideas?
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Old March 28, 2018, 08:34 AM   #41
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Scorch: No, these issues have always been around. We have had killers like Caligula, the James boys, Dillinger, Hitler and Himmler around ever since time began (usually self-centered sociopaths with no regard for others' rights or ideas that disagree with theirs). The biggest difference is that society used to make sure kids understood the difference between right and wrong at a fairly early age. Nowadays they are taught that there is no right or wrong, it's how you feel that makes it right or wrong. Morality is a no-no, and protecting kids from the consequences of their actions is a mandate. So you get kids that commit minor crimes at early ages, and they are sheltered from law enforcement by short-sighted teachers who are trying to be nice, which leads them to commit bigger crimes because they got away with it the last time. It's a very complex issue that gets people all fired up because some of those kids are theirs. Solution? Don't know.
Don't know? I think you answered your own question there, bub. As (keyword) responsible adults, we have an obligation to bestow upon our little ones a sense of what's right and wrong, and a working concept of consequences for one's actions. We don't need any governments permission to do so, and as a society, we have indeed gotten lazy about it, and now we're reaping what has been sewn.

You're completely right too, in saying that it's always been there. Since before written history, there have been wolves among the sheep. In today's digital age however, the wolves are getting a lot more press (CNN makes more money that way, and the OP's silence makes me believe he's just here to stir that pot). I think it would behoove us to take whatever we see in the news with a grain of salt to a degree as individuals, agree to take our youth's hand and lead them down the right roads just as we were.

We, the good people of the world, are still the majority. Putting a bullhorn and a camera in front of a few confused individuals, giving them some press, doesn't change that, or our responsibilities to the future generations that we can directly affect by looking at our kids and saying "see that? Don't be like that" and so on and so forth. Keeping the riffraff (those who would pander to such minorities) elected out of Washington helps quite a bit, too.

TL;DR: I'm brainwashing my kids to be members of a freedom sleeper cell. They just don't know it.

Last edited by MarkA; March 28, 2018 at 08:45 AM.
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Old March 28, 2018, 09:16 AM   #42
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It's not guns, it's certainly not caliber or action. It's the intent of an evil heart:

http://time.com/4407268/nice-attack-...-bastille-day/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

https://nypost.com/2015/03/25/nyc-da...-commemorated/

Guns are just "sexy" to the media jackals and they love dancing in the blood of victims trying to sell disarmament of the generally law abiding populace.

If they somehow got rid of the 450 million to 600 million firearms in the U.S. then evil people would find another, and possibly more effective means of killing, and then nobody would be able to defend themselves.
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Old March 29, 2018, 03:28 AM   #43
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They need to ban cars, pressure cookers, cell phone use by minors, sharp sporks, acid of all types, trucks, planes, poison, tractors, etc. Just ban until we live in caves and then ban trees and.....we will still have violence using tools.
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Old March 30, 2018, 08:00 AM   #44
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Quote:
We have had killers like Caligula, the James boys, Dillinger, Hitler and Himmler around ever since time began
Not really.

Today's mass shooters are simply trying to call attention to themselves. It seems to be done to "right some wrong" in their lives.

This is the result of an overinflated sense of entitlement, Hollywood condoned violence where every movie depicts the hero solving all their problems with a gun, and other modern entertainment where people sit on the sofa for hours killing realistic but virtual human beings.

Read, "On Killing".
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Old March 30, 2018, 08:10 AM   #45
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Bama - Banning ARs/Assault Rifles will not stop killings. However, the reasonable argument is that it may reduce the amount of people being killed per incident. The reason is the rate of fire per time. The restriction of ARs/Assault rifles to people with dysfunctional problems may also reduce the homicides committed. One of the failing issues of argument for the unrestricted use of the AR is magazine size and rate of fire and consequently its caliber.
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Old March 30, 2018, 09:05 AM   #46
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Maybe the real question should be: How do you win an argument when facts don't matter?
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Old March 30, 2018, 10:27 AM   #47
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Bama - Banning ARs/Assault Rifles will not stop killings. However, the reasonable argument is that it may reduce the amount of people being killed per incident.
That is mitigating the problem and not solving it. Once more, that mitigation punishes millions of responsible gun owners for the actions of a tiny few.


It goes against the 2nd most important right our Founding Fathers gave to us with the intention of using it to secure our inalienable rights endowed by our creator.

It is patently as ridiculous as banning cars for the actions of a few. Cars kill way more people than guns.

Solve the problem itself. Demand INDIVIDUAL responsibility, accountability, and end the culture of entitlement from our society.

End the glorification of violence and reward perception that comes from it which serves to provide these sicko's a perception of a moral foundation for their actions.
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