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Old March 13, 2018, 09:38 PM   #51
Aguila Blanca
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Ultimately, the shooter is responsible. That doesn't change the fact that "the system" that was supposed to prevent such incidents failed miserably.

For example: This school is so big that it's a multi-building campus. One of the early articles noted that the individual buildings aren't locked, because students (and staff, I suppose) have to move from one building to another. "Security" was supposed to be provided by a fence around the perimeter of the campus, and gates that are locked during the day.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the school on Google Maps, and went into street view. This perimeter "security" fence appears to be nothing but a 4-foot (or less) high chain link fence that almost anyone under the age of ninety could easily jump. Plus -- street view showed me a personnel-sized gate facing the street that was wide open.

As I believe I've said before, we don't need gun control -- we need stupid control. Until school boards and administrators start taking school security seriously instead of just paying lip service to it, there will be no such thing as school security.
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Old March 14, 2018, 06:23 AM   #52
ATN082268
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Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
Either increase security in schools or take all the guns away.
Even if you sidestep things like the 2nd Amendment and civil liberties, you won't be able to get rid of all the guns. You might be able to largely eliminate private gun ownership but criminals will still keep their guns and/or get more illegally. Generally, you'll be confiscating guns from people who aren't the problem in the first place. A complete deflection of personal responsibility and poor public policy, IMHO.

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Don’t think we’ve seen the end of gun control.
True. Little to none of the current gun control laws will go away and a lot more will be added, little by little. Death by a thousand cuts. Politicians know they can only pass so much at one time and the courts don't seem inclined to take into account other laws already on the books, which is a disastrous recipe for all our rights.
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Old March 14, 2018, 08:21 AM   #53
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Generally, you'll be confiscating guns from people who aren't the problem in the first place.
That’s the end goal.

You can get most of the guns, but it would be an expensive and monumental task. After they go ransacking everyone’s home, business and every inch of ground in the USA we’d have to seal off every border and inch of coastline. Then you’d have to have home inspections every week. Also would have to have significant patrols through wilderness areas to make sure no one is smuggling guns... and so on.
I’m sure the public would enjoy the 90% income tax, and borrowing trillions from the rest of the world.
So that leaves us with spend somewhat less but still a hugely expensive task of securing the schools. It will happen some, but not enough.

It’s never about ending gun crime. Gun control is not about those who break the law, it’s about controlling those who can be controlled.
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Old March 14, 2018, 05:09 PM   #54
Aguila Blanca
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I'm back after a brief power outage. Just as the lights went out, I was in the midst of posting that I went back and took a longer look at Google's street view of the school. Upon further study, I'd say the chain link fence may be 6 feet high rather than 4 feet ... but I'm pretty certain it's not 8 feet high. And I did confirm spotting a personnel gate that was wide open.
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Old March 15, 2018, 08:43 AM   #55
buck460XVR
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
I'm back after a brief power outage. Just as the lights went out, I was in the midst of posting that I went back and took a longer look at Google's street view of the school. Upon further study, I'd say the chain link fence may be 6 feet high rather than 4 feet ... but I'm pretty certain it's not 8 feet high. And I did confirm spotting a personnel gate that was wide open.
Did Google Earth say what time of day the photo was taken or what day of the week? Most High School become "community" buildings once school is out. Because of sporting events, band concerts, dance/music recitals, etc., the buildings and parameters are unlocked. So unless one can verify the picture was taken on a school day during school hours, seeing it open is a moot point. These times when a building and/or it's grounds are open to the community is when I fear the most for an attack, especially from persons outside and unfamiliar with the school. How does one secure a football field and it's bleachers. same with the High School soccer/baseball fields. Folks crowded in a small area and a soft target, especially for longer range weapons(think Las Vegas). I don't know the exact procedures that the Florida School used, but for the most part, most High Schools are very secure during school hours. Those kids that attend those schools however, know what doors are open at what time and any accesses that may be unsecured or jimmied/propped open, either by themselves or others.

BTW, by coincidence, just worked for two days with our alarm company repairing several firedoors at our High School. We had to redirect a main traffic route thru the school temporarily, because the doors, by default, have to be shut if they do not close be themselves when the alarm sounds. I was told firedoors and the way the work, are virtually in every school in the area they cover(3 states).
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Old March 15, 2018, 09:14 AM   #56
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most High Schools are very secure during school hours.
In my experience this varies wildly. "Security" around hear means you either have to walk past or through the office. In some cases (but not most) you have to be buzzed in. THE line of defense in most places is the secretary if he or she happens to be at her desk. I kid you not the secretary at one school, when I asked about it, dug around in her desk and after a minute or so showed me the hornet spray she could use to spray at someone trying to get by without permission.
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Old March 15, 2018, 10:14 AM   #57
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We have discussed why Hornet spray is not a good option. Just saying, so we don't go down that mythological route.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by buck460XVR
Did Google Earth say what time of day the photo was taken or what day of the week?
It just says May 2017.

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.3044...7i13312!8i6656
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Old March 15, 2018, 03:01 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Lohman446
In some cases (but not most) you have to be buzzed in.
That was the system (newly installed) at Sandy Hook. They were very proud of it -- until it failed completely in the face of an actual assault.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; March 16, 2018 at 07:05 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old March 16, 2018, 06:49 AM   #60
Lohman446
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That was the system (newly installed) at Sandy Hook. They were very proud of it -- util it failed completely in the face of an actual assault.
A lot of times around here the newest and greatest will be installed, at great expense, and then turned off or not used because its inconvenient for the staff and those entering and exiting. I think sometimes the point is missed.
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Old March 16, 2018, 08:39 AM   #61
buck460XVR
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In my experience this varies wildly. "Security" around hear means you either have to walk past or through the office. In some cases (but not most) you have to be buzzed in. THE line of defense in most places is the secretary if he or she happens to be at her desk. I kid you not the secretary at one school, when I asked about it, dug around in her desk and after a minute or so showed me the hornet spray she could use to spray at someone trying to get by without permission.
More than likely, because of pay scale, that person sitting at the desk at the door is going to be a $12.00 an hour aid and not a $15.00 an hour clerk/secretary. Her training is going to be minimal. Odds are it is a part time position only when school is in session. As for the Hornet spray, several years ago in one of our school security seminars, Hornet/wasp spray was actually recommended by the Police officer(Captain at the time....now the Chief) giving the seminar. Since then, that suggestion has been rescinded for obvious reasons.

School have many choices to make in how they spend the little bit of monies they have. Many times these choices are made on the priorities of the admin, school board and parents. Do we put new sod on the football field or increase school security? Do we hire a new teacher and get new computers, or do we invest in better security cameras? A local basketball team is playing in the state championship finals this weekend. The first team they oppose star player pleaded guilty to felony armed robbery on Tuesday of this week. What priorities does one see there? Not only does this kid(charged as a adult) not fit the description of school athletics and a code of ethics, but they allow an admitted violent offender into their school after hours everyday with no security. Just so maybe they win a state championship. There is also the matter of a budget. If a school district does not have funds to immediately increase security measures, it does not happen. Then you have public opinion. I hear parents everyday state they do not want their kids going to a school that looks like/is operated like, a prison. I also hear them whine when they need to go to the front office and be "buzzed" in so they can talk to the principal about their misbehaving kid. These folks claim there's really no need for all this security and school taxes are already too high. Schools are just a extension of the area they cover, even tho they are mandated to teach minimal standards. Folks, even in the best case scenarios, get lazy and casual when it comes to security. Nuttin' ever happens here. As I said before, resident students know the buildings and accesses better than the administration. They know where students are at any time of day and know how to get to them. We will never stop these types of shootings completely, but we can minimize the damage they do.
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