1851 Navy trigger problems

grasshopper579 · September 12, 2009, 11:59 AM

Hello all I need some technical help. I just picked up a Pietta 1851 .44 cal Navy revolver brass frame that has some trigger problems. The trigger has a little play in in were it moves forward and back about 1/8" or so. The problem is when you cock the hammer as long as the revolver is pointed towards the ground it will cock like it should,however if the revolver is aimed even slightly higher up it will not cock. I have inspected all internal parts and don't see anything obvious and all the parts look fine. Any input will be appreciated. Thanks

Fingers McGee · September 12, 2009, 01:47 PM

if you've inspected the internals and not found a broken trigger spring, It's possible that the spring isn't bearing on the shelf of the trigger, or it's rubbing the frame & not putting tension on the trigger; or the spring is cracked and will fall apart when you take it out..

grasshopper579 · September 12, 2009, 02:16 PM

Thats what it is Thanks,upon closer investigation it appears that the trigger springs tip broke off. Thanks again

Smokin_Gun · September 12, 2009, 05:55 PM

Adda boy Fingers good call ... Grasshopper thems the kind a questions that are the back bone of these forums. It's always better to ask now than pay more later :O) good job to you too.

SG

madcratebuilder · September 13, 2009, 08:00 AM

Fingers=Bullseye!

Hardy · September 14, 2009, 09:16 PM

just a two cents here. We used to call that trigger spring (you know the flat spring that lays flat over the bolt spring that the long leg catches the top knotch of the trigger-a SEAR. It was called a sear spring-why not now? And we noticed the trigger screw sometimes will freeze up and cannot be removed

And polishing the hammer hand channel for hammer hand assemblies to not break as easy is good advise but--does that include all the way up through it!? Or just the intro part before small pointed hand part protrudes through the smaller short channel end at impact to cylinder? It seems Uberties are the best reps and the best for hammer hands to break first---and Sears break in the Piettas. Pietta parts are cheaper than Uberties But hammer hand assemblies in Uberties and colts are not cheap. A swiss metalurgist and textile machinery parts expert that helps us w/ guns and likes them is not imppressed with the metal used in these guns. And, I guess we just have to deal with what is available

WBH

Fingers McGee · September 14, 2009, 11:11 PM

Polishing the hand channel on both bearing surfaces, where the spring rides, and the window that the hand goes through to engage the ratchet. Removing the burs, machine marks from the surface where the spring rides eliminates binding and chatter on the spring which in turn extends it's life. I've had a number of hand springs break; but, after I polished the hand channels, I've not had any break.

mykeal · September 15, 2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

We used to call that trigger spring (you know the flat spring that lays flat over the bolt spring that the long leg catches the top knotch of the trigger-a SEAR. It was called a sear spring-why not now?

Well, because it's not a sear or a sear spring, it's a trigger/bolt spring.

It has nothing to do with the sear. It has two functions, one to apply a load to the bolt so that it returns to the deployed position when the hammer cam releases it, and the other to return the trigger to the rest position when the hammer has been released. The sear simply goes along for the ride.

It's not, or should not be, a flat spring at all; both legs of the spring should have a slight curve, with the trigger leg having a small lip on the end.

The sear is the part of the trigger that holds the hammer in cocked and half-cocked position and releases the hammer when the trigger is pulled.

Doc Hoy · September 15, 2009, 07:08 AM

I always thought it was called "frammus". It is identical to the frammus that pushes the cylinder clockwise (viewed from the fantail) when the hammer is drawn back. All my pistols have two frammi (plural of frammus). Some actually have three (When I can't think of the right name for the wedge.)

madcratebuilder · September 15, 2009, 09:05 AM

Doc, is that the double inverted frammus, or just a run of the mill semi inverted frammus? Those double inverted frammi are hard to come by.

I'm a burnin' Doc, I'm a burnin'.

Noz · September 15, 2009, 11:20 AM

I have an 1851 original and the frammus spring/trigger bolt spring is hand made and it is flat.

Hardy · September 16, 2009, 06:36 PM

If you look under coltparts.com that spring is called a sear and bolt

wbh

mykeal · September 16, 2009, 06:54 PM

Yes, and VTI Gun Parts calls it a trigger bolt spring, and Dixie Gun Works calls it a trigger & stop spring, and Cabela's calls it a trigger/bolt stop spring. Most people familiar with Colt single action parts will recognize what part you mean if you use any of those terms (trigger bolt spring, trigger & stop spring or triggerbolt stop spring) because they describe the function. Since the spring has nothing to do with the sear, calling it a sear spring will just confuse most people. However, you can certainly call it whatever you want.

Hardy · September 16, 2009, 07:18 PM

McKeal---We have the colt gun parts on display so that is why I called it a sear. But, you're right it isn't called that anywhere else but when we got started I thought the colt gun parts explosion was a good guide and I know that a lot of shooters (99%) have the unscrolled brass Navy 44 that they bought from Cabela. They are constantly breaking the long arm of the spring. Is it a cheap gun w/ weak parts? But I order 5 evey 2 weeks and sell them. Maybe I order 20. The hammer hand assembly breaks more on Uberties. I think your advise is good but the spring is a weak link on that part and fouling doesn't help nor does the heat. I can't get uberti hammer hands now since all are backlogged

mykeal · September 17, 2009, 06:26 AM

The brass framed .44 'Navy' that Pietta sells is indeed a 'cheap' gun, both in the sense of inexpensive and the sense of low quality. It's popular due to price and attractiveness.

There is a simple solution to the weak trigger/bolt spring: both Wolf and Heinie make music wire springs for that function which last forever. They're expensive but when one adds up the cost of several leaf type springs and several shipping charges, it's a simple decision. The only problem is that once you've fixed that weak link you get to discover the next one (probably the hand spring). Brownell's sells the Heinie spring under part number 394-630-000. If you don't already have a dealer account with Brownell's, you should. http://www.brownells.com/

madcratebuilder · September 17, 2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

The brass framed .44 'Navy' that Pietta sells is indeed a 'cheap' gun, both in the sense of inexpensive and the sense of low quality. It's popular due to price and attractiveness.

You may want to look at some of the new production. I have seen many and fired several. All have been well made with fit and finish as good as anything in the 2-300 dollar price range. Keep the loads at a moderate level because of the brass frame, but other than that as nice as the steel frame counterparts, in fact nicer than some.

Hardy · September 17, 2009, 07:32 PM

Thanks for the tip McKeal---I have had to learn too fast too soon w/day job grabbing my--- but Ijust wanted to post that the colt gun parts lists it as a sear and bolt spring. that was the confusion there on that ther part

Now =I have an 1861 ubertie Navy where the trigger screw will not come out. I've tried everything, penatrating oil, punches, oversized srewdriver heads etc. The trigger screw head is almost worn flat--will not budge--before taking it to a machine shop=any suggestions?

Hardy · September 17, 2009, 07:53 PM

madcrater, you're right to some extent but we got 6 guns in and had to send 2 brassers back because of loading lever problems. Also, 2 we got awhile back cocked with chafing. We only sell guns that feel good/w good action. Now, the Pietta 1860 Colt we kept and looks, feel and action is excellent, but the finish on the grips would not come up to your satisfaction. But, go to Cabella, they had maybe still--a great price on these. Less than $200. I like it

Hardy · September 25, 2009, 09:29 PM

I have a friend that grew up in Swiss. He not only knows guns in and out but made his living working on textile machinery, especially small parts. He comes by the shop and is also a metalurgist. He said that the hammerhand springs break because the trigger bolt spring gets weak and throws the hammer hand too hard to the right. Also by cocking it to hard and quick it puts more force on the spring. He examined the frames and could find no burrs. Now, don't get mad at me, this is what he said. You know the Swiss are good at moving metal parts. What do you think?

mykeal · September 25, 2009, 09:57 PM

Well, my book learning in mechanics and strength of materials told me that the load (stress) in a spring was directly related to the position of the spring (strain), not the speed of application. Applied and released load over many cycles (Sn diagram) is what weakens spring material. I guess I'd have to see the equation relating speed of application to increased load developed from first principles.

How does the trigger/bolt spring 'throw the hand to the right'? I thought the hand moved up and down strictly due to hammer rotational motion. There's no link between the trigger/bolt spring and the hand that I can see.

Hardy · September 26, 2009, 05:11 PM

I don't know. I just reported an opinion from someone. Possibly, everytime you cock, the cylinder rotates to the right. If the bolt action gets weak the cylinder might rotate a little harder to the right causing more friction on the hammerhand on it's right side. that could cause undue pressure and friction on that spring. Maybe/maybe not.

September 12, 2009, 11:59 AM	#1
grasshopper579 Junior Member Join Date: August 4, 2009 Posts: 3	1851 Navy trigger problems Hello all I need some technical help. I just picked up a Pietta 1851 .44 cal Navy revolver brass frame that has some trigger problems. The trigger has a little play in in were it moves forward and back about 1/8" or so. The problem is when you cock the hammer as long as the revolver is pointed towards the ground it will cock like it should,however if the revolver is aimed even slightly higher up it will not cock. I have inspected all internal parts and don't see anything obvious and all the parts look fine. Any input will be appreciated. Thanks

September 12, 2009, 01:47 PM	#2
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	if you've inspected the internals and not found a broken trigger spring, It's possible that the spring isn't bearing on the shelf of the trigger, or it's rubbing the frame & not putting tension on the trigger; or the spring is cracked and will fall apart when you take it out.. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

September 12, 2009, 02:16 PM	#3
grasshopper579 Junior Member Join Date: August 4, 2009 Posts: 3	Trigger Spring Thats what it is Thanks,upon closer investigation it appears that the trigger springs tip broke off. Thanks again

September 12, 2009, 05:55 PM	#4
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Adda boy Fingers good call ... Grasshopper thems the kind a questions that are the back bone of these forums. It's always better to ask now than pay more later :O) good job to you too. SG __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

September 14, 2009, 11:11 PM	#7
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Polishing the hand channel on both bearing surfaces, where the spring rides, and the window that the hand goes through to engage the ratchet. Removing the burs, machine marks from the surface where the spring rides eliminates binding and chatter on the spring which in turn extends it's life. I've had a number of hand springs break; but, after I polished the hand channels, I've not had any break. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

September 13, 2009, 08:00 AM	#5
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Fingers=Bullseye!

September 14, 2009, 09:16 PM	#6
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	just a two cents here. We used to call that trigger spring (you know the flat spring that lays flat over the bolt spring that the long leg catches the top knotch of the trigger-a SEAR. It was called a sear spring-why not now? And we noticed the trigger screw sometimes will freeze up and cannot be removed And polishing the hammer hand channel for hammer hand assemblies to not break as easy is good advise but--does that include all the way up through it!? Or just the intro part before small pointed hand part protrudes through the smaller short channel end at impact to cylinder? It seems Uberties are the best reps and the best for hammer hands to break first---and Sears break in the Piettas. Pietta parts are cheaper than Uberties But hammer hand assemblies in Uberties and colts are not cheap. A swiss metalurgist and textile machinery parts expert that helps us w/ guns and likes them is not imppressed with the metal used in these guns. And, I guess we just have to deal with what is available WBH

September 15, 2009, 07:08 AM	#9
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	C'mon Folks! I always thought it was called "frammus". It is identical to the frammus that pushes the cylinder clockwise (viewed from the fantail) when the hammer is drawn back. All my pistols have two frammi (plural of frammus). Some actually have three (When I can't think of the right name for the wedge.) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

September 15, 2009, 09:05 AM	#10
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Doc, is that the double inverted frammus, or just a run of the mill semi inverted frammus? Those double inverted frammi are hard to come by. I'm a burnin' Doc, I'm a burnin'.

September 15, 2009, 11:20 AM	#11
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	I have an 1851 original and the frammus spring/trigger bolt spring is hand made and it is flat.

September 16, 2009, 06:36 PM	#12
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	If you look under coltparts.com that spring is called a sear and bolt wbh

September 16, 2009, 06:54 PM	#13
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Yes, and VTI Gun Parts calls it a trigger bolt spring, and Dixie Gun Works calls it a trigger & stop spring, and Cabela's calls it a trigger/bolt stop spring. Most people familiar with Colt single action parts will recognize what part you mean if you use any of those terms (trigger bolt spring, trigger & stop spring or triggerbolt stop spring) because they describe the function. Since the spring has nothing to do with the sear, calling it a sear spring will just confuse most people. However, you can certainly call it whatever you want.

September 16, 2009, 07:18 PM	#14
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	McKeal---We have the colt gun parts on display so that is why I called it a sear. But, you're right it isn't called that anywhere else but when we got started I thought the colt gun parts explosion was a good guide and I know that a lot of shooters (99%) have the unscrolled brass Navy 44 that they bought from Cabela. They are constantly breaking the long arm of the spring. Is it a cheap gun w/ weak parts? But I order 5 evey 2 weeks and sell them. Maybe I order 20. The hammer hand assembly breaks more on Uberties. I think your advise is good but the spring is a weak link on that part and fouling doesn't help nor does the heat. I can't get uberti hammer hands now since all are backlogged

September 17, 2009, 06:26 AM	#15
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	The brass framed .44 'Navy' that Pietta sells is indeed a 'cheap' gun, both in the sense of inexpensive and the sense of low quality. It's popular due to price and attractiveness. There is a simple solution to the weak trigger/bolt spring: both Wolf and Heinie make music wire springs for that function which last forever. They're expensive but when one adds up the cost of several leaf type springs and several shipping charges, it's a simple decision. The only problem is that once you've fixed that weak link you get to discover the next one (probably the hand spring). Brownell's sells the Heinie spring under part number 394-630-000. If you don't already have a dealer account with Brownell's, you should. http://www.brownells.com/

September 17, 2009, 07:32 PM	#17
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Thanks for the tip McKeal---I have had to learn too fast too soon w/day job grabbing my--- but Ijust wanted to post that the colt gun parts lists it as a sear and bolt spring. that was the confusion there on that ther part Now =I have an 1861 ubertie Navy where the trigger screw will not come out. I've tried everything, penatrating oil, punches, oversized srewdriver heads etc. The trigger screw head is almost worn flat--will not budge--before taking it to a machine shop=any suggestions?

September 17, 2009, 07:53 PM	#18
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	madcrater, you're right to some extent but we got 6 guns in and had to send 2 brassers back because of loading lever problems. Also, 2 we got awhile back cocked with chafing. We only sell guns that feel good/w good action. Now, the Pietta 1860 Colt we kept and looks, feel and action is excellent, but the finish on the grips would not come up to your satisfaction. But, go to Cabella, they had maybe still--a great price on these. Less than $200. I like it

September 25, 2009, 09:29 PM	#19
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I have a friend that grew up in Swiss. He not only knows guns in and out but made his living working on textile machinery, especially small parts. He comes by the shop and is also a metalurgist. He said that the hammerhand springs break because the trigger bolt spring gets weak and throws the hammer hand too hard to the right. Also by cocking it to hard and quick it puts more force on the spring. He examined the frames and could find no burrs. Now, don't get mad at me, this is what he said. You know the Swiss are good at moving metal parts. What do you think?

September 25, 2009, 09:57 PM	#20
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Well, my book learning in mechanics and strength of materials told me that the load (stress) in a spring was directly related to the position of the spring (strain), not the speed of application. Applied and released load over many cycles (Sn diagram) is what weakens spring material. I guess I'd have to see the equation relating speed of application to increased load developed from first principles. How does the trigger/bolt spring 'throw the hand to the right'? I thought the hand moved up and down strictly due to hammer rotational motion. There's no link between the trigger/bolt spring and the hand that I can see.

September 26, 2009, 05:11 PM	#21
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I don't know. I just reported an opinion from someone. Possibly, everytime you cock, the cylinder rotates to the right. If the bolt action gets weak the cylinder might rotate a little harder to the right causing more friction on the hammerhand on it's right side. that could cause undue pressure and friction on that spring. Maybe/maybe not.