The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 8, 2007, 08:11 AM   #1
Mach II Sailor
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2007
Posts: 480
Mixing or blending powders

anyone ever done it ? i called a bullet manufactuer and asked what powder was used in in a certain ammo loading, they told me it was a propritary powder, a "blend" and therefore not available to reloaders.
Mach II Sailor is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 08:17 AM   #2
rwilson452
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2004
Location: Tioga co. PA
Posts: 2,647
DO NOT DO THIS! DO NOT MIX POWDERS! EVER!

DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!

The Companies that do this have safe methods of testing their mixes before they put it in production.
rwilson452 is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 08:40 AM   #3
ShootingNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,475
If Your Anxious

To leave this world, or live with part of a body, then DUMP AWAY!
One would have to be NUTS to mix powders, OR to double up your charges!
ShootingNut is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 08:47 AM   #4
HSMITH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2002
Posts: 2,019
Well, 'duplex' charges were how the 454 Casull started out. The difference is he was willing to blow a gun to bits and start over. He could afford it, didn't care, and figured out how to do it safely.

We have SO many powders now that are SO different that there really is NO reason to try it, not unless your desires are drastically different from what you can get. If so, be prepared to hurt guns badly, and figure out how to test these things safely. It is going to be EXPENSIVE.

I would just step up to a more powerful cartridge and shoot on.....
HSMITH is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 09:41 AM   #5
Rangefinder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2005
Posts: 2,017
I'd liken it to mixing sweating dynamite and a ballpein hammer, except that's probably a little safer than blending powders.
__________________
"Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?"

Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.
Rangefinder is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 09:48 AM   #6
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
Quote:
Well, 'duplex' charges were how the 454 Casull started out. The difference is he was willing to blow a gun to bits and start over. He could afford it, didn't care, and figured out how to do it safely.
He got up to triplex charges, Unique, 2400, and a little Bullseye on top to give a last burst of gas as the bullet moved down the cylinder and barrel and increased the working volume.

Now you can just load it with 296 and do better than ever.


As far as what the manufacturer told Mach II Sailor, they might have been using a special order powder "blend", they more likely were using a bulk powder not sold by the pound, and they were very likely using what they got a good price on this month and will be loading Something Else of similar burn rate next month because they get a better deal.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 10:50 AM   #7
Tanzer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2007
Posts: 884
Never

1) It's like striking a match to find a gas leak.
2) There's ABSOLUTELY no need for it.
'Nuff said.
__________________
Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.
Tanzer is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 11:04 AM   #8
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Commercial ammo makers use a "bulk" powder.
You and I use, for reloading, "Canister" powders.

Bulk powders are made in large lots to provide a specific burn rate, have certain flash properties and still be within certain pressures using standardized tests.

Canister powders are consistent from lot to lot (can to can) so that we can use the same charges from session to session.

Blending your own powder is a recipie for disaster!
There is no guarantee you can get multiple powders to disperse evenly from charge-to-charge, thus one charge may produce 20% more pressure than another.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 11:11 AM   #9
swmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2005
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 670
If you choose to do it, please do it far away from your friends and neighbors. Although if you are Nancy Pelosi's neighbor, mix away to your heart's content!
__________________
My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.


"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

____________________________________________
swmike is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 11:17 AM   #10
rem33
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2006
Posts: 1,528
If you the think idea of holding explosions in your hands close to your face might be fun then blending powders might be for you. Can we say Darwin Awards?

NEVER Blend powders
rem33 is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 01:41 PM   #11
tharmer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 130
A lot of fear stuff, but not very much real reasoning about why not to mix.
Of course you can blend accurately.
What could you gain?
If you want more muzzle flash?
If you have a chrony couldn't you work up a blend carefully?
Are there any powders that some of you have blended? Results?
tharmer is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 02:32 PM   #12
steveno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Minden , Nebraska
Posts: 1,407
pictures of the aftermath would be good. video in real time would be even better
steveno is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 03:42 PM   #13
lonniemike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2005
Posts: 138
Around these parts with so many different powders available, why waste the time, money, and effort to blend ones own powder? But necessity is the mother of invention. I remember other similar posts by peoples with limited access to varied powders(as in S Africa). Besides being careful and working up, something not to do, was to try not to mix powder types that were way different from each other( as single base, double base, stick, flake, spherical, etc). best-o-luck
lonniemike is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 06:32 PM   #14
VaFisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2006
Posts: 596
In todays market there is no reason to come up with one's on powder mix. If you were planfing on going in the bussiness of manufacturing ammo for profit it may be a diferent story. Even then it would have to be done under lab conditions to keep things safe for the lab tech and the end user. For your own safety it would be advisable for you to forget about reinventing the wheel and stick to whats availible.
VaFisher is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 08:51 PM   #15
ZeroJunk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Location: Browns Summit NC
Posts: 2,589
Seems to me if you did, for some unusual purpose ,need to mix powders that accuracy and velocity would be erratic unless you could mix and distribute the powders exactly the same within the case.So,even if you didn't blow anything up the load would likely not be accurate.
ZeroJunk is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 09:15 PM   #16
amamnn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2006
Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA
Posts: 1,323
Blending powders is a common practice among BR loaders, though not a majority. I know a few who do it and I have seen it done. It is not a matter of adding half a pound of 748 to half a pound of 335 and shaking it up. The folks I know who do it swear it gives better performance, but I don't see them in the top 5 aggs here, or anywhere else.
__________________
"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal
amamnn is offline  
Old April 8, 2007, 09:34 PM   #17
tube_ee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Posts: 492
Consider the potential for differing densities of your two powders, and therefore settling of the denser powder in the bottom of your measure (or floating of the lighter one if you used a trickler.)

If they two powders had radically different burn rates, (and if they were very close, why blend them?) if the denser powder was the faster powder, you would be likely to throw a significant overcharge of the faster powder. With disastrous consequences.

This would be true even if your target load was precisely interpolated between the safe pressure loads of the two powders. Which you could only figure accurately if you knew both the absolute burn rate (burn rate charts and even numbers are relative burn rates, based on the speed of the fastest powder in the chart) and the gas volume per unit mass of powder burned (which may, and may not, correlate to the burn rate) for both powders. Neither of these data points are available to the handloader, and if you had the equipment needed to derive them empirically, you wouldn't need to come to an internet handloading forum to ask the question.

So the only way this could ever be even remotely safe for the amateur would be if the two powders were very similar in terms of shape and density, and if they were close enough in burn characteristics that a load of 100% of target weight in either powder would be a safe load. At which point, why bother trying to blend them? Even then, it wouldn't be a good idea.

Don't try this. Please.

--Shannon
tube_ee is offline  
Old April 9, 2007, 12:37 AM   #18
mc223
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2007
Location: n/w Wisconsin
Posts: 365
Some of the benchrest community have been blending powders for years and in some cases with very good result.
The following is an excerpt from another forum. The author is unknown. The testing is well thought out. As are the potential problems.

You would need to have a good understanding of your desired end result and weigh that against what is already available. Your end result very likely already exists.
Kernal size would need to be very similar to avoid the settling of one from the other. Also burn rates would need to be similar. Mixing would need to be very thorough.
Blending could be a very hazardous proposition if not done with good sense. Both powders would need to be tested and chronographed. A good understanding of each powder is necessary to theorize what the blend should deliver. Testing of the blend should be very predictable, based on collected data of the individual powders.



Quote:
I started about a month or so ago blending N135 and Varget for my 30x47. I was using 41.8 grs. of N-135 or 43.9 grs. of Varget. Now I use 42.8 grs. of this blend. the reason for this was because the N-135 would increase in velosity as much as 40 to 50 fps from a temp change from 65 degrees to 85 degrees and The x count would not be there shooting score matches. By adding this blend of Varget Xtreme non temp sensitive powder I found that my velocity's are only variying about 20fps in this same temp variance and that my x count is as good as it was when I used straight N-135 on a day that powder and temp matched. and on the same note the N-135 was not filling my case as I would like it and the Varget was like a compressed load. now with 42.8 grs I get good case capacity and a velocity varaince that does not seem to affect the accuracy as much. and as far as being dangerous I can go as much 43 grs of N-135 or 45 grs of Varget, and since I'm using 42.8 grs of blend even if I would dump all of one kind or the other it would not be over the max load anyway. And by the way I get a good blend when I only do 250 grs. of each at a time

Last edited by mc223; April 9, 2007 at 01:11 AM.
mc223 is offline  
Old April 12, 2007, 09:00 AM   #19
Mach II Sailor
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2007
Posts: 480
CALM DOWN FOLKS !!

i do not plan on this, i just wanted to know if it has been done by any one and if so what powders were used, and for what calibers.

i have done the duplex and triplex loadings with unsatisfactory results
Mach II Sailor is offline  
Old April 12, 2007, 09:28 PM   #20
TEDDY
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2006
Location: MANNING SC
Posts: 837
blending

what they did not explain was the whole prosess.factorys blend-they take the different lots of the like powder and blend it.they test it to see if it burns correctly if not more blending.thats a short verson of the process.don't you do it.which you said you just wanted to add to your knowledge.
TEDDY is offline  
Old April 23, 2007, 01:33 AM   #21
mattgreennra
Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2007
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 93
I would only do it if you don't care about living or you are uber rich and can afford the ridiculous amounts of safeties.
mattgreennra is offline  
Old April 23, 2007, 04:45 AM   #22
esheato
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: Marysville, CA
Posts: 110
I've done it by accident before.

Bought a 4 lb. can of 4350. I was emptying a powder measure to fill it with another propellant. Dumped a bunch of Unique in it by accident.

I about died! Until I ran the numbers of exactly how much I had dumped. The percentages were like .5% of the new propellant in the jug.

Pfft! I shot all of it and didn't have any problems. Shot some nice groups too.

By all rights, I shouldn't have. But I wasn't about to toss a whole new 4 lb. can of propellant.

I joked for months about my "custom blend". I still have all my fingers and toes too.

Ed
esheato is offline  
Old April 23, 2007, 07:09 AM   #23
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
A friend had a slipup like that; dumped a measure of AA2520 into his Varget can. I got with a contact in the laboratory and borrowed some testing sieves. We found a mesh that screened out the powders. He got maybe 98% of his 2520 back with no Varget in it and the Varget with a dusting of 2520. He loaded the mixture up at a charge weight that was in the normal range for either powder alone and it shot as well with the mix as the straight stuff. Not better, he had no temptation to start blending powder on purpose, but it did work to where he could salvage the powder with no penalty in accuracy.
Jim Watson is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07233 seconds with 10 queries