Springfield Hellcat - Red Dot or Not?

Bobgeorge · January 19, 2021, 02:25 PM

I bought a Hellcat (non-osp) as my CCW in February 2020 and love it.

For the people that have a red dot do you find it more accurate? Also, does the red dot make it more difficult to conceal.

Wondering because most situations where you needed your CCW would normally be very close range so just wondering how much more accurate a red dot would make it.

Thanks!

ms6852 · January 19, 2021, 02:30 PM

I hope you do not mind me replying to your inquiry as I do not use a red dot for CCW. I use reddot in some of my handguns for target shooting and a little bit of precision shooting. My experience has shown me that if you need a fast acquisition in a defensive posture, since this is your conceal carry, open sights would be the way to go.

I have issues trying to find the dot in my target guns and it could be because the it is a small MOA dot instead of the larger ones and it is because of this experience that I personally would not use one. Just my 2¢ that you did not ask for.

Bobgeorge · January 19, 2021, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ms6852

I hope you do not mind me replying to your inquiry as I do not use a red dot for CCW. I use reddot in some of my handguns for target shooting and a little bit of precision shooting. My experience has shown me that if you need a fast acquisition in a defensive posture, since this is your conceal carry, open sights would be the way to go.

I have issues trying to find the dot in my target guns and it could be because the it is a small MOA dot instead of the larger ones and it is because of this experience that I personally would not use one. Just my 2¢ that you did not ask for.

Good feedback. Thanks.

TunnelRat · January 19, 2021, 03:07 PM

I have red dots mounted on five pistols that I carry or use for home defense. The closest of those in size to the Hellcat would be the P365XL.

There is a learning curve with red dots when talking about sights that don’t have a tubular body with front and rear lenses. Most of this is about getting a good presentation with the pistol such that the dot is where your eye expect it to be. If your standard presentation is very good the learning curve won’t be as harsh. If your presentation is not as good then you’re in for a rougher ride. Red dots can really expose faults in your technique. Expect to spend some time training with a red dot to really get comfortable with it (in my experience that training you do will pay dividends when using or not using red dots).

Red dots have the capacity for greater accuracy, but like anything with shooting the user is still the biggest factor. To me the biggest advantage of red dots on pistols is target focused shooting. You’re not trying to align a front sight in a rear notch while getting all of those on a target. You’re superimposing the dot on the target itself. The focus remains on the target.

Will the above make a difference at say 3-5 yd? Given that you can point shoot effectively at that distance, maybe not. But red dots give an added capability without taking away the ability to point shoot.

I have carried with a red dot in both the appendix and at the 3 o’clock position. I don’t find it hampers my concealment. In fact in some ways it breaks up the outline of the straight top of the slide.

I hesitate to tell any one person that he or she should get a red dot. It’s a decision I think best made by each person. As someone whose vision is such that managing multiple focal planes was always a challenge, red dots have made my shooting easier and more enjoyable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sharkbite · January 19, 2021, 04:23 PM

^100%^...spot on

mk70ss · January 19, 2021, 05:19 PM

I have a Hellcat and put a dot on it. I found I could shoot quicker with the open sights but more accurately at greater distances with the dot. I ended up taking it off.

PSP · January 19, 2021, 05:20 PM

I have a Sig Romeo Zero mounted on my Hellcat and I love it. I found a holster made for both gun and optic. No different than carrying any other gun. I carry OWB.

Aiming a red dot is absolutely no different than aiming with iron sights and because the two sights co-witness if you aim one you are aiming the other. The red dot allows for much faster aimed follow up shots. I have a number of red dots and lasers on some of my more often used pistols. I good quality green laser is also a valuable tool. I'll take any advantage I can get. I have a Canik TP9 Elite SC with both! If I miss with that one it's all my fault!

TunnelRat · January 19, 2021, 06:45 PM

One note on co-witnessing. The general advice seems to be to zero the red dot and the irons separately. That is while you’ll be able to see both in the optic window, don’t slave the red dot to the iron sights. Different instructors will explain the why differently, but Aaron Cowan explains it that by forcing the two to have the same point of aim you’re essentially giving up some of the accuracy potential of the red dot and the irons themselves are zeroed by their design for a set distance, whereas you can choose that distance with a red dot. I found his video helped me understand.

https://youtu.be/tpkb0Lyr9RM

In my experience zeroing the dot and the irons separately is a good idea. When first installing the red dot I will slave the red dot to the front post so that it sits on top of the front post (think of a lollipop). This generally puts the red dot in the ballpark of being zeroed. Then I will go the range and zero the red dot separately. In my case the red dot usually ends up very slightly high and to the left of the front post if I look down the irons with the front post centered in the rear sight. This is fine. While some people will use the irons to help find their dot, the two sighting methods don’t have to have the exact same POA to function.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Adventurer 2 · January 21, 2021, 06:30 AM

Last year I bought a CZ P10 S OSP - my CCW - love at first shot. Later I put a Delta Point Pro on it. Harder to get on target and I seemed to have lost some accuracy. People told me I needed to get used to an optic sight. 500 rounds later - I took the optic off. I shoot faster and more accurately without the optic. I moved that optic to a competition gun, CZ Shadow, and fell in love w that set up - the optic worked for me on this handgun but just felt unnatural on the sub compact - I felt like I had to tilt the handgun down to get the dot in view on the sub but on the full size handgun the dot was visible on my usual presentation. No adjustment to handgun level needed.

ejb69 · January 21, 2021, 08:29 AM

Not apples to apples. I put a Delta Point on my glock 40. I'm finding I dont shoot any better with it. Now i have something that needs a battery on my woods carry gun thats not really needed . i think I would have been better off to just have put some type of high vis sights on the gun.

With ammo being hard to get I have not shot it as much as Id like to. I am undecided if the red dot is going to stay on my glock at this time. It does work, but I dont think its needed.

Shadow9mm · January 21, 2021, 10:57 PM

Jerry Miculek and his daughter did a vid on transitioning from irons to red dots. Good stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOoOVsWcJIM

Willie Lowman · January 22, 2021, 07:55 AM

I put a SRO on my Glock 34. It took a year of continual use but I am now faster with the dot than irons.

It takes a lot of practice to get good with a pistol mounted dot. However if you have the time and ammo to put in the reps, it will pay off.

Bobgeorge · January 25, 2021, 09:51 PM

A lot of good info. Thanks!

zoo · January 25, 2021, 10:29 PM

Bobgeorge, have you considered mounting a laser to your handgun? No need to worry about cowitnessing your sight. I have lasers mounted to several handguns. Red dots on a rifle or two.

Bobgeorge · January 26, 2021, 09:28 PM

@PSP What holster did you use?

Sanch · January 27, 2021, 06:54 AM

Good Morning Bobgeorge,

I've read that the Hellcat has surpassed a 20k test w/o a single problem. It's a top-of-the-line handgun.

My take is a Hellcat is a belly gun. It's a very close distance handgun, which means it's a point shooting gun. At very close distance, acquiring sights might determine the outcome. There's reason the Chief Special has virtually no sights. Hence, if it's going to be used for close distance self-defense, an optic sight might defeat its purpose.

I have factory sights only on my self-defense handguns. When I go to ranges, 90% of my shooting is point shooting.

Bobgeorge · January 27, 2021, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanch

Good Morning Bobgeorge,

I've read that the Hellcat has surpassed a 20k test w/o a single problem. It's a top-of-the-line handgun.

My take is a Hellcat is a belly gun. It's a very close distance handgun, which means it's a point shooting gun. At very close distance, acquiring sights might determine the outcome. There's reason the Chief Special has virtually no sights. Hence, if it's going to be used for close distance self-defense, an optic sight might defeat its purpose.

I have factory sights only on my self-defense handguns. When I go to ranges, 90% of my shooting is point shooting.

Good feedback, Sanch!

TunnelRat · January 27, 2021, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanch

Good Morning Bobgeorge,

I've read that the Hellcat has surpassed a 20k test w/o a single problem. It's a top-of-the-line handgun.

My take is a Hellcat is a belly gun. It's a very close distance handgun, which means it's a point shooting gun. At very close distance, acquiring sights might determine the outcome. There's reason the Chief Special has virtually no sights. Hence, if it's going to be used for close distance self-defense, an optic sight might defeat its purpose.

I have factory sights only on my self-defense handguns. When I go to ranges, 90% of my shooting is point shooting.

I’ve shot the P365, own a P365XL. To me pistols of similar size are more than just belly guns. They’re certainly capable of good shooting out to 10 yd and more, which unless you have a very large belly is outside what I consider a belly gun. I’ve done a two day course on reflexive (point) shooting that was based on the teachings of Bob Taubert. I definitely think reflexive shooting is a useful skill. That said, there’s nothing mutually exclusive about a micro red dot and reflexive shooting. I still practice reflexive shooting with my red dot equipped pistols.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

gnystrom · January 27, 2021, 12:03 PM

I have shot many handguns with various dots mounted. Yes they can be more accurate at distance but I strongly prefer open sights on my defensive revolvers. Take that extra $200 and buy a box of practice 9mm.

Sanch · January 28, 2021, 01:14 AM

Hi Tunnel Rat,

As distance of threat increases, tactical response should be modified to increase probability of survival. If a threat were 10 yards from me, I'd be thinking of tactical retreat to the new county. Getting shot could screw up the rest of my life.

At distances of 90+5 percent of gunfights, a survivor has to keep both eyes open and scan for additional threats.

Point shooting "X" rights hits at 10 feet is easy with practice. At 30 feet, I'd be thinking of running to safety.

By definition, a gunfight means a bad guy wants you reduced to evidence of murder and your corpse autopsied the following morning. I want to avoid that disposition.

A good tactical shooting course will include tactical retreats which is euphemism for hightailing it to the next county.

TunnelRat · January 28, 2021, 07:15 AM

Sure, I have nothing against running away. If someone is actively shooting at you and cover, or at least concealment, isn’t readily available then simply turning around and trying to run might well see you get shot in the back and you’ll end up in that autopsy you mentioned. 7-10 yd is about the distance across a room in a home. A person can cover that distance very quickly. If someone has broken into my home and is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to myself or my family, I’m not retreating even if he’s 10 yd away. While I’d rather a different firearm for home defense, not everyone has the money to allow a multi-gun solution and maybe the Hellcat is simply what’s at hand.

At the end of the day my goal is to never use the firearm. I like having options in the event I do have to use a firearm, even if it’s in a manner I didn’t think most likely.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

alancac98 · February 14, 2021, 05:10 PM

i have a SCCY CPX-2 RD and love it. It's the first RD gun I have ever shot but it comes up very quickly an I am on target in no time. But, I have to say I was always trained as a kid during deer season to use the iron sights first then move to the scope if you can. I grew up hunting with a Winchester 30-30 with a side mounted scope. I always used the iron sights to locate the deer, then moved to the scope if I could (deer not moving quickly). I still do that to this day. I shoot both eyes open, so when I bring the SCCY up, I'm looking at the iron sights first but my eyes quickly transition to the dot which come in line immediately after. It take time, but I was 12 when I started so I have it down. Train yourself to use both, not just looking for the red dot as that could get you searching for shadows too much. Use the irons to help you.

jag1954 · February 14, 2021, 06:19 PM

I prefer mine w/o the red dot because it's easier for me to draw. I'm fairly small and carry it in a Tulster Profile IWB. Fits perfectly.

PSP · February 15, 2021, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobgeorge

@PSP What holster did you use?

Sorry about the delay, I just saw this question. It is a New Pacifica Leather holster marked HCOSP. Found on Ebay for $45. Fits great.

gnystrom · February 16, 2021, 09:17 AM

All my small carry guns are intended for up close and personal situations. No red dots and in reality, during training at 30', I seldom use sights.

January 19, 2021, 02:25 PM	#1
Bobgeorge Junior Member Join Date: August 19, 2020 Posts: 11	Springfield Hellcat - Red Dot or Not? I bought a Hellcat (non-osp) as my CCW in February 2020 and love it. For the people that have a red dot do you find it more accurate? Also, does the red dot make it more difficult to conceal. Wondering because most situations where you needed your CCW would normally be very close range so just wondering how much more accurate a red dot would make it. Thanks!

January 19, 2021, 02:30 PM	#2
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	I hope you do not mind me replying to your inquiry as I do not use a red dot for CCW. I use reddot in some of my handguns for target shooting and a little bit of precision shooting. My experience has shown me that if you need a fast acquisition in a defensive posture, since this is your conceal carry, open sights would be the way to go. I have issues trying to find the dot in my target guns and it could be because the it is a small MOA dot instead of the larger ones and it is because of this experience that I personally would not use one. Just my 2¢ that you did not ask for. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

January 19, 2021, 05:19 PM	#6
mk70ss Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,598	I have a Hellcat and put a dot on it. I found I could shoot quicker with the open sights but more accurately at greater distances with the dot. I ended up taking it off. __________________ Say when.....

January 19, 2021, 06:45 PM	#8
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Springfield Hellcat - Red Dot or Not? One note on co-witnessing. The general advice seems to be to zero the red dot and the irons separately. That is while you’ll be able to see both in the optic window, don’t slave the red dot to the iron sights. Different instructors will explain the why differently, but Aaron Cowan explains it that by forcing the two to have the same point of aim you’re essentially giving up some of the accuracy potential of the red dot and the irons themselves are zeroed by their design for a set distance, whereas you can choose that distance with a red dot. I found his video helped me understand. https://youtu.be/tpkb0Lyr9RM In my experience zeroing the dot and the irons separately is a good idea. When first installing the red dot I will slave the red dot to the front post so that it sits on top of the front post (think of a lollipop). This generally puts the red dot in the ballpark of being zeroed. Then I will go the range and zero the red dot separately. In my case the red dot usually ends up very slightly high and to the left of the front post if I look down the irons with the front post centered in the rear sight. This is fine. While some people will use the irons to help find their dot, the two sighting methods don’t have to have the exact same POA to function. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

January 21, 2021, 10:57 PM	#11
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,974	Jerry Miculek and his daughter did a vid on transitioning from irons to red dots. Good stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOoOVsWcJIM __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

January 19, 2021, 03:07 PM	#4
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	I have red dots mounted on five pistols that I carry or use for home defense. The closest of those in size to the Hellcat would be the P365XL. There is a learning curve with red dots when talking about sights that don’t have a tubular body with front and rear lenses. Most of this is about getting a good presentation with the pistol such that the dot is where your eye expect it to be. If your standard presentation is very good the learning curve won’t be as harsh. If your presentation is not as good then you’re in for a rougher ride. Red dots can really expose faults in your technique. Expect to spend some time training with a red dot to really get comfortable with it (in my experience that training you do will pay dividends when using or not using red dots). Red dots have the capacity for greater accuracy, but like anything with shooting the user is still the biggest factor. To me the biggest advantage of red dots on pistols is target focused shooting. You’re not trying to align a front sight in a rear notch while getting all of those on a target. You’re superimposing the dot on the target itself. The focus remains on the target. Will the above make a difference at say 3-5 yd? Given that you can point shoot effectively at that distance, maybe not. But red dots give an added capability without taking away the ability to point shoot. I have carried with a red dot in both the appendix and at the 3 o’clock position. I don’t find it hampers my concealment. In fact in some ways it breaks up the outline of the straight top of the slide. I hesitate to tell any one person that he or she should get a red dot. It’s a decision I think best made by each person. As someone whose vision is such that managing multiple focal planes was always a challenge, red dots have made my shooting easier and more enjoyable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

January 19, 2021, 04:23 PM	#5
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	^100%^...spot on

January 19, 2021, 05:20 PM	#7
PSP Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2006 Location: Bowling Green Virginia Posts: 4,487	I have a Sig Romeo Zero mounted on my Hellcat and I love it. I found a holster made for both gun and optic. No different than carrying any other gun. I carry OWB. Aiming a red dot is absolutely no different than aiming with iron sights and because the two sights co-witness if you aim one you are aiming the other. The red dot allows for much faster aimed follow up shots. I have a number of red dots and lasers on some of my more often used pistols. I good quality green laser is also a valuable tool. I'll take any advantage I can get. I have a Canik TP9 Elite SC with both! If I miss with that one it's all my fault!

January 21, 2021, 06:30 AM	#9
Adventurer 2 Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2006 Posts: 663	Last year I bought a CZ P10 S OSP - my CCW - love at first shot. Later I put a Delta Point Pro on it. Harder to get on target and I seemed to have lost some accuracy. People told me I needed to get used to an optic sight. 500 rounds later - I took the optic off. I shoot faster and more accurately without the optic. I moved that optic to a competition gun, CZ Shadow, and fell in love w that set up - the optic worked for me on this handgun but just felt unnatural on the sub compact - I felt like I had to tilt the handgun down to get the dot in view on the sub but on the full size handgun the dot was visible on my usual presentation. No adjustment to handgun level needed.

January 21, 2021, 08:29 AM	#10
ejb69 Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Posts: 49	Not apples to apples. I put a Delta Point on my glock 40. I'm finding I dont shoot any better with it. Now i have something that needs a battery on my woods carry gun thats not really needed . i think I would have been better off to just have put some type of high vis sights on the gun. With ammo being hard to get I have not shot it as much as Id like to. I am undecided if the red dot is going to stay on my glock at this time. It does work, but I dont think its needed.

January 22, 2021, 07:55 AM	#12
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	I put a SRO on my Glock 34. It took a year of continual use but I am now faster with the dot than irons. It takes a lot of practice to get good with a pistol mounted dot. However if you have the time and ammo to put in the reps, it will pay off. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

January 25, 2021, 09:51 PM	#13
Bobgeorge Junior Member Join Date: August 19, 2020 Posts: 11	A lot of good info. Thanks!

January 25, 2021, 10:29 PM	#14
zoo member Join Date: October 2, 2019 Posts: 414	Bobgeorge, have you considered mounting a laser to your handgun? No need to worry about cowitnessing your sight. I have lasers mounted to several handguns. Red dots on a rifle or two.

January 26, 2021, 09:28 PM	#15
Bobgeorge Junior Member Join Date: August 19, 2020 Posts: 11	@PSP What holster did you use?

January 27, 2021, 06:54 AM	#16
Sanch Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2020 Posts: 154	Good Morning Bobgeorge, I've read that the Hellcat has surpassed a 20k test w/o a single problem. It's a top-of-the-line handgun. My take is a Hellcat is a belly gun. It's a very close distance handgun, which means it's a point shooting gun. At very close distance, acquiring sights might determine the outcome. There's reason the Chief Special has virtually no sights. Hence, if it's going to be used for close distance self-defense, an optic sight might defeat its purpose. I have factory sights only on my self-defense handguns. When I go to ranges, 90% of my shooting is point shooting.

January 27, 2021, 12:03 PM	#19
gnystrom Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 308	I have shot many handguns with various dots mounted. Yes they can be more accurate at distance but I strongly prefer open sights on my defensive revolvers. Take that extra $200 and buy a box of practice 9mm.

January 28, 2021, 01:14 AM	#20
Sanch Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2020 Posts: 154	Hi Tunnel Rat, As distance of threat increases, tactical response should be modified to increase probability of survival. If a threat were 10 yards from me, I'd be thinking of tactical retreat to the new county. Getting shot could screw up the rest of my life. At distances of 90+5 percent of gunfights, a survivor has to keep both eyes open and scan for additional threats. Point shooting "X" rights hits at 10 feet is easy with practice. At 30 feet, I'd be thinking of running to safety. By definition, a gunfight means a bad guy wants you reduced to evidence of murder and your corpse autopsied the following morning. I want to avoid that disposition. A good tactical shooting course will include tactical retreats which is euphemism for hightailing it to the next county.

January 28, 2021, 07:15 AM	#21
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Springfield Hellcat - Red Dot or Not? Sure, I have nothing against running away. If someone is actively shooting at you and cover, or at least concealment, isn’t readily available then simply turning around and trying to run might well see you get shot in the back and you’ll end up in that autopsy you mentioned. 7-10 yd is about the distance across a room in a home. A person can cover that distance very quickly. If someone has broken into my home and is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to myself or my family, I’m not retreating even if he’s 10 yd away. While I’d rather a different firearm for home defense, not everyone has the money to allow a multi-gun solution and maybe the Hellcat is simply what’s at hand. At the end of the day my goal is to never use the firearm. I like having options in the event I do have to use a firearm, even if it’s in a manner I didn’t think most likely. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; January 28, 2021 at 07:25 AM.

February 14, 2021, 05:10 PM	#22
alancac98 Member Join Date: April 3, 2013 Location: North Central PA Posts: 59	i have a SCCY CPX-2 RD and love it. It's the first RD gun I have ever shot but it comes up very quickly an I am on target in no time. But, I have to say I was always trained as a kid during deer season to use the iron sights first then move to the scope if you can. I grew up hunting with a Winchester 30-30 with a side mounted scope. I always used the iron sights to locate the deer, then moved to the scope if I could (deer not moving quickly). I still do that to this day. I shoot both eyes open, so when I bring the SCCY up, I'm looking at the iron sights first but my eyes quickly transition to the dot which come in line immediately after. It take time, but I was 12 when I started so I have it down. Train yourself to use both, not just looking for the red dot as that could get you searching for shadows too much. Use the irons to help you.

February 14, 2021, 06:19 PM	#23
jag1954 Member Join Date: December 29, 2020 Posts: 28	I prefer mine w/o the red dot because it's easier for me to draw. I'm fairly small and carry it in a Tulster Profile IWB. Fits perfectly.

February 16, 2021, 09:17 AM	#25
gnystrom Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 308	All my small carry guns are intended for up close and personal situations. No red dots and in reality, during training at 30', I seldom use sights.