Transfer of a gun with no serial number on it.

[Bill DeShivs]

The OP asked about a handgun with no serial number. While a home made gun is not required to be serialized, a couple of you stated that serial numbers were not required before 1968. This is true for long guns. Factory-made handguns have been required to have serial numbers since 1934.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Factory-made handguns have been required to have serial numbers since 1934.

I don't think so, unless I'm missing something.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 did include a provision for all firearms to have a serial number or other identifying mark ... but the NFA defined "firearms" for the purposes of the act as rifles and shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches. Handguns were specifically excluded.

For the purposes of this act--
(a) The term "firearm" means a shotgun or rifle having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition.

This is right at the beginning of the NFA, so that definition of "firearm" applies to any provisions affecting "firearms" anywhere in the remainder of the act.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Webleymkv

So how do FFL's handle transfers of factory-produced firearms which were made before 1968 and have no serial number?

You just put NSN (no serial number) in the appropriate box and proceed with the transfer.

[Bill DeShivs]

I can assure you that manufacturers have been required to serialize handguns since 1934.

[Mike38]

I inherited a few firearms from my late Father. One was a Remington bolt action .22LR that he got for a Christmas gift at age 12, which would be around 1947. It has no serial number. It was transferred from Texas to me in Illinois without any problems. The FFL just described it best he could on the form.

[raimius]

Bill, which law required it, and can you link the text for us? Thanks!

[Bill DeShivs]

I believe it was the National Firearms Act of 1934. You can look it up.
Think about this- how many pistols have you seen without serial numbers?

[Aguila Blanca]

Bill, I looked it up. See post #28. I quoted the language of the definition of "firearm" as it applies to the [entire] act. It specifically excludes pistols and revolvers. It also does not apply to rifles and shotguns that are not easily concealed on the person.

You may be correct that all firearms manufactured after 1934 are required to have serial numbers but, if that's correct, the NFA of 1934 isn't the law that requires it. So, since you have said there is a requirement, please tell us where the requirement is found.

[44 AMP]

The quoted text from the NFA 34 does seem to exclude handguns. I don't know of any other law requiring serial numbers until the 1968 GCA. I know that one does.

Gunmakers voluntarily put serial numbers on guns for over well over a century BEFORE any law required it. Just not on ALL guns. It was another of those things that showed the "quality" of the item. Low budget .22s and some shotguns didn't get numbers. "High quality" guns, did, including .22s and shotguns.

the odd thing is, compared to today, prettymuch NOBODY CARED....

[Bill DeShivs]

Why would GCA-68 ONLY require that long guns be serialized?
Because handguns were already required.
Other than splitting hairs, what would my researching NFA and finding the information (or not) prove? The federal statutes referencing "firearms" are ambiguous at best. In the NFA, "firearms" are a completely different animal than regular guns-yet in most other federal gun laws the term "firearm" refers to pistols and rifles.

Can I prove that the NFA required handgun serial numbers? Maybe.
Do I choose to? No.
The statement(s) was made that until 1968, handguns did not require a serial number, and that statement is blatantly false. So, I'll modify my statement:

The federal government has required serial numbers on licensed manufacturer's handguns for a very long time- probably since the NFA 34. How's that?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Can I prove that the NFA required handgun serial numbers? Maybe.
Do I choose to? No.
The statement(s) was made that until 1968, handguns did not require a serial number, and that statement is blatantly false. So, I'll modify my statement:

The federal government has required serial numbers on licensed manufacturer's handguns for a very long time- probably since the NFA 34. How's that?

Your revised statement gets you off the hook, but it doesn't contribute to the collective knowledge base. We're all here to learn, and the more we can learn about gun laws the better prepared we are to argue against new ones when they are proposed.

The statement(s) was made that until 1968, handguns did not require a serial number, and that statement is blatantly false.

Having now declared that the statement is "blatently" false, I respectfully submit that it is your responsibility to demonstrate why it is false. Initially you said it was because the NFA of 1934 required serial numbers on handguns, but the NFA explicitly exempts handguns, and rifles and shotguns with barrels longer than 18 inches.

Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster On-line

Definition of blatant

1 : noisy especially in a vulgar or offensive manner : clamorous
2 : completely obvious, conspicuous, or obtrusive especially in a crass or offensive manner : brazen blatant disregard for the rules

The statement that serial numbers were not required on handguns before the GCA of 1968 might be incorrect, but I don't think 44 AMP would lie to us, so I don't think it's appropriate to label his statement "false." Even if he's wrong, he's not "blatantly" wrong, because it's not at all obvious that he's wrong. The fundamental principles of debate now place the ball in your court. You have said he's wrong -- it's your responsibility to back that up. Shirking that responsibility doesn't add anything to the knowledge base.

[Edit to add]I just did a search on "When were serial numbers required on firearms?" Every link that came out of that says that, for other than NFA items, the requirement began with the GCA of 1968.

[Bill DeShivs]

Yeah- I did that simple search, too. It's wrong.

[Gelrir]

The 1938 Federal Firearms Act, which was replaced by the 1968 GCA, has a teensy bit about serial numbers:

"It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, ship, or knowingly receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm from which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated, or altered, and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."

Which of course isn't a requirement for them. On the Federal level, this seems to be about it until 1968.

https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/...-52-Pg1250.pdf

[Bill DeShivs]

I just perused the GCA 68 and find nothing in it requiring serial numbers.
There IS a lot more stuff in it that you may find interesting, though.

I ask-what pre-1968 handguns did NOT have serial numbers? I have a Eig .22 short pre-68 revolver. It's about as cheap as they came. It has a serial number.
All of the pre-68 small guns by Astra, Beretta, Colt, Star, etc. are serialized. If it was not a requirement before 1968, why are they numbered?
Why are many US made long guns that were made pre-68 un numbered?

Simple logic says that there was a requirement for handguns to be serialized before 1968.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

I ask-what pre-1968 handguns did NOT have serial numbers? I have a Eig .22 short pre-68 revolver. It's about as cheap as they came. It has a serial number.
All of the pre-68 small guns by Astra, Beretta, Colt, Star, etc. are serialized. If it was not a requirement before 1968, why are they numbered?
Why are many US made long guns that were made pre-68 un numbered?

Simple logic says that there was a requirement for handguns to be serialized before 1968.

Simple logic could also deduce that prior to 1968 manufacturers chose to put serial numbers on guns for reasons of their own, other than the NFA of 1934. Research 1911s, for example, and you'll find that Colt put serial numbers on ALL their 1911s, not only on the M1911 versions that were sold to the military. I have a book on Colt Serial numbers. It shows that the early black powder, cap and ball Walker Colts and Dragoons, as far back as 1847, had serial numbers.

"There must have been a reason" does not automatically mean that the NFA of 1934 was the reason.

[raimius]

Bill, if you are going to claim all the sources people found are wrong, it is up to you to prove it. Otherwise you are claiming to be the only one here with the correct knowledge of published law, even though people looking through said published law find otherwise.

[Bill DeShivs]

No one has found anything in published law except that NFA 34 did not apply to pistols. What they found is Internet Q&A stuff that does not involve ATF. Nor has anyone found that GCA 68 required serial numbers on long guns. As time allows, I'll try to research it further.

[Tom Servo]

Nor has anyone found that GCA 68 required serial numbers on long guns.

It required numbers on all guns involved in commerce. The text of the 1968 GCA is readily available online.

The requirements:

SEC. 5842. IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS.

(a) IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS OTHER THAN DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES.

—Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary or his delegate may by regulations prescribe.

(i) Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers shall identify, by means of a serial number engraved or cast on the receiver or frame or the weapon, in such manner as the Secretary shall by regulations prescribe, each firearm imported or manufactured by such importer or manufacturer.

The prohibitions:

SEC. 5861. PROHIBITED ACTS.

It shall be unlawful for any person— (...)

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or

(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or

(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter

[Aguila Blanca]

Still not direct from the BATFE, but FWIW:

https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearm...mbers-illegal/

According to the NFA Handbook (produced by BATFE, see http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/...s-act-handbook), “Congress found these firearms to pose a significant crime problem because of their frequent use in crime, particularly the gangland crimes of that era such as the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre.”

The NFA imposed several restrictions in efforts to reduce the criminal use of these particular weapons. Among many other restrictions, the act required all firearms subject to the NFA to have serial numbers on them.

[photo of newspaper]

In 1968, the Gun Control Act (GCA) imposed numerous additional requirements in the arena of gun manufacture. As per the GCA, all firearms manufactured or imported into the United States are required to bear a serial number. This law ―which was effective October 22, 1968― extends the serial requirement beyond the specific group of NFA regulated firearms.
https://www.pennlago.com/wp-content/uploads/GCA.jpg