Turkish Mauser 8mmx57 - Page 3

F. Guffey · May 8, 2019, 01:15 PM

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Forward cocking is also very inefficient if you're in a battle which is why I think they went to rear cocking on later versions.

Went to rear cocking? You say 'they'; I do not know who they were/are. I will assume you are talking about the Turks. When it came to your rifle they did not have a choice, they had to use a cock on close bolt or nothing. In the beginning you thought your rifle was a large ring Mauser, Jim Watson and I had doubts.

F. Guffey

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Front and rear? Cock on open and cock on close? And then there is the safety with the 3 positions. If the reloader is going to remove the bolt and then reinstall the bolt into the receiver the reloader places the safety in the up position.

It is by design: The firing pin assemble can not be taken apart with out the safety supporting the firing pin. The firing assemble must be able to rotate when removing from the bolt body.

One of the ugliest display of bad behavior I have ever witnessed was caused by the disassemble of a Mauser bolt. Anyhow, I told the smith to mail it to me and if I could not fix it I would send him another one.

F. Guffey

Scorch · May 8, 2019, 06:16 PM

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You say 'they'; I do not know who they were/are.

Obviously that pesky old Paul Mauser. Cock on open was a feature of the Mauser 1898 design and not the 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, or 1896 Mausers? What was he thinking?

From the beginning, the OP did not know what he was getting or what it was. Rifles had the features they were designed with and operate within the parameters they were made for. Exceed those parameters and you are in trouble. I think this rifle is a "learning experience".

F. Guffey · May 8, 2019, 06:50 PM

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From the beginning, the OP did not know what he was getting or what it was

He knew the year, from the year he was told what it 'was not'.

F. Guffey

**44 AMP** · May 9, 2019, 11:44 PM

If the headspace checks within limits, and if you believe Remington ammo is still good brass, get some of the core-lokt hunting ammo.

Can't say with certainty what is sold today, but a couple decades ago, when I was into 8mm Mausers, it was only about a buck more expensive than .30-30, and while not nearly as hot as European ammo, its decent, doesn't stress the old 93,95 actions and was a good source for decent reloadable brass.

Mobuck · May 10, 2019, 06:32 AM

Current domestic production 8x57 ammo is loaded light enough to be safe in most anything that doesn't have an obstructed bore.

F. Guffey · May 10, 2019, 08:07 AM

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Current domestic production 8x57 ammo is loaded light enough to be safe in most anything that doesn't have an obstructed bore.

And then there is the remote chance a shooter will chamber an 8MM57 in a 30/06 chamber. With starting loads and the reduce pressure caused by the .127" clearance there it is not likely the rifle will be rendered scrap. BUT! Before the 8MM bullets clears the 30 Cal barrel the case will be wrecked. The case head could expand as much as .040". All of this while the case body is locked to the chamber.

Because I am the fan of form first and then fire I formed 200 30/06 cases to 8MM57 before I started. Advantage: It is possible to off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case. With close to .171" difference in length between the 8MM57 and 30/06 I did not believe there was any way I could miss if I knew the length of the 8MM57 chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

And then there was the, 'WHAT IF", What if the shoulder of the chamber was .127" ahead of the shoulder of the case when fired?

F. Guffey

Jim Watson · May 10, 2019, 09:40 AM

It apparently takes a heavy hand and far end of tolerances to cram an 8mm into a .30.
At nominal dimensions the neck is about a 9 thou interference fit.
This has been a scare story for a long time, but Hatcher only recorded one case in his compliation of demolished low number Springfields.

It is my understanding that it is not the "vacant" chamber but the neck "pinch" that is the danger. I have seen some .308s fired in "controlled feed" .30-06s that shot normally... until somebody noticed the empty blown out nearly straight.

A previous moderator on this board assured us that the 7.7mm Arisaka rifle was intentionally designed so that a desperate Jap could force a captured .30 cartridge into the chamber. I guess it would do for a quick seppuku.

**44 AMP** · May 10, 2019, 10:38 AM

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A previous moderator on this board assured us that the 7.7mm Arisaka rifle was intentionally designed so that a desperate Jap could force a captured .30 cartridge into the chamber.

I have no idea who that was, but Moderators are only human and do make mistakes too. Still I have to wonder if it wasn't meant to be the other way around. You might be able to force a 7.7 Jap into a .30-06 chamber by hand, but I seriously doubt the reverse is true. Not by hand, anyway. Maybe with a big enough hammer....The 06 case about .2" longer and .12" wider at the critical area, indeed, the case spec drawings say the 06 is actually .001-.002 WIDER that the 7.7 in the case NECK. If you can compress a loaded round that much by hand, you're a much stronger man than I.

As to being "designed" to do it, that's bull. No one designs their military round to use anyone else's, especially that of an "enemy" you aren't at war with until years in the future.

Maybe you can find an Arisaka with a grossly oversized chamber and maybe you can cram an 06 into that one, but I believe its absolutely NOT designed to be possible.

Jim Watson · May 10, 2019, 11:24 AM

Debated at length in 2005
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...hlight=arisaka

I think Fitz was victim of an old wives' tale.

F. Guffey · May 10, 2019, 01:10 PM

A North Texas gun smith had a walk in customer with a rifle that was locked up; the shooter was going to sue everyone. He was going to sue the manufacturer of the rifle, the salesman that sold him the ammo, the manufacturer of the ammo and the salesman.

It took over 2 hours to get the bolt open. The case head was so flattened Remington 308W could not been seen on the case head. And then the smith asked to see the box of ammo and the receipt, it did not take him long to determine there was only one round missing from the box of 20. After the research he asked the shooter about the chamber in the rifle. The shooter insisted the rifle was a 308W. the smith then asked who owned the rifle.

The irate shooter claimed he volunteered to test the rifle for accuracy. It was at this time the smith informed the shooter he was one very luck man because the rifle with the stuck case was a 25/06 and he could forget suing anyone.

And then the guessing started; observers were betting on how long the bullet must have been when it left the barrel. I did not get involved because no one would believe how the 308W bullet got past the forcing cone.

Quote:

It apparently takes a heavy hand and far end of tolerances to cram an 8mm into a .30.

And then there is the pinching of the neck you mentioned. It takes little effort and there is no way the end of the neck of the 8mm57 can get pinched when chambered in a 30/06 chamber unless we are talking about Bart B's firing pins.

He is the one that has firing pins that are so powerful that they drives the case, bullet and powder forward until the shoulder of the case strikes the shoulder of the chamber. I have given up on getting him to consider other alternative options.

And when it comes to verifying one of the 'other' North Texas guns smiths and I grew up within a mile of each other and attended school together for 9 years starting in 1952.

F. Guffey

May 9, 2019, 11:44 PM	#54
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	If the headspace checks within limits, and if you believe Remington ammo is still good brass, get some of the core-lokt hunting ammo. Can't say with certainty what is sold today, but a couple decades ago, when I was into 8mm Mausers, it was only about a buck more expensive than .30-30, and while not nearly as hot as European ammo, its decent, doesn't stress the old 93,95 actions and was a good source for decent reloadable brass. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 10, 2019, 09:40 AM	#57
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	It apparently takes a heavy hand and far end of tolerances to cram an 8mm into a .30. At nominal dimensions the neck is about a 9 thou interference fit. This has been a scare story for a long time, but Hatcher only recorded one case in his compliation of demolished low number Springfields. It is my understanding that it is not the "vacant" chamber but the neck "pinch" that is the danger. I have seen some .308s fired in "controlled feed" .30-06s that shot normally... until somebody noticed the empty blown out nearly straight. A previous moderator on this board assured us that the 7.7mm Arisaka rifle was intentionally designed so that a desperate Jap could force a captured .30 cartridge into the chamber. I guess it would do for a quick seppuku. Last edited by Jim Watson; May 10, 2019 at 09:46 AM.

May 10, 2019, 06:32 AM	#55
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Current domestic production 8x57 ammo is loaded light enough to be safe in most anything that doesn't have an obstructed bore.

May 10, 2019, 11:24 AM	#59
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Debated at length in 2005 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...hlight=arisaka I think Fitz was victim of an old wives' tale.