Advice on 45 Colt

shafter · December 23, 2009, 08:42 PM

Hi, I'm new to the forum and new to reloading as well. I just bought a Lee handpress and wish to load 45's for my New Vaquero. I have a can of unique powder and am wondering if its safe to use the 7cc dipper provided or will I need a more precise set of scales. I'm trying to get by with a minimum amount of accessories. I don't want to load anything too hot, just replicate the original loads or a little less.

Also, if I load black powder how many grains would be safe for my gun? Can I load the whole casing? Will I have to disassemble the gun to clean the inner workings or can I just take the cylinder out and scrub whatever is visible? I'm looking forward to your feedback. There's alot of good advice here!

les265 · December 23, 2009, 10:47 PM

According to "Modern Reloading" by Lee, you cannot use the .7 dipper and Unique (with a 250 gr. lead bullet) for loading the 45 Colt. The .7 dipper will give you about 6.4 grs. The recommended load in Lee's book is 8 grs. of Unique.

According to the Lee manual, Universal powder and the .7 dipper with a lead 250 gr. bullet gives a velocity of 800 fps. I haven't used Universal, but I have heard it is quite a bit cleaner burning than Unique, but has the same characteristics. So, I would either get a powder measure and scale if you want to use your Unique, or get a bottle of Universal and use your dippers.

Get the Lee reloading manual for alot of information.

Lost Sheep · December 24, 2009, 02:43 AM

Les265,

If you are reading the Modern Reloading, 1997 reprint, on page 94 (end of chapter 8). That is the page headed "Greatly reduced charges or squib loads". Light charges of fast burning powder can be loaded (even in large cases) and 6.4 grains of Unique seems to be a reasonable light charge for a light load in 45 Colt.

Of course, when ANYONE gives you new information, check it out with an independent resource. The fact is, Lee's book gives very narrow ranges of loads. Other loading manuals provide a wider acceptable range. Of course, when ANYONE gives you new information, check it out with an independent resource.

Shafter, welcome to the forum and welcome to reloading. I recommend spending the 10-15 dollars to get the full set of Lee Scoops. The set comes with a card that tells you how many grains of powder will be thrown with each scoop. However, the card is not perfectly accurate. Your scooping technique will vary the charge weight. But if you are consistent, whatever you throw will be consistent. That is why I also recommend a scale to weigh the charges you are putting in your cases. You should be able to find a used one in good condition, possibly at a gun show? Or pawn shop. For a quick test, bring a half-dozen 1/2" #6 wood screws with you and weight each one, then weigh them in pairs, trios, then four, five and all six. If the weights all add up. your scale is good. There are more scientific ways, but this is an expedient method to tell if the thing is consistent through the range of weights you will be dealing with in powders.

Once you find a charge you want to load in your ammunition, there you have it. Check to make sure it is the same whenever you start a loading session (just in case your memory or notes are not perfect - better double check than sorry) and occasionally during your loading session (to make sure your technique is consistent).

Scale, press, dies & case holder, dippers, safety glasses (you wear safety glasses when loading, right?, especially when working with primers.) cleanup stuff, a couple of loading blocks and some way to mount your press and you are pretty much good to go.

check this location for my "10 Advices for New Reloaders"

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=387433
or if the link doesn't work, paste this into your browser
thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387433

See posts 16 and 17

Lost Sheep

Oh, by the way. Did I mention, When ANYONE gives you new information, check with an independent source?

Here's my usual caveat:
Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

Lost Sheep

Uncle Buck · December 24, 2009, 07:18 AM

Welcome to the forum. You have stumbled upon a nest of truths here.

My biggest advice would be to get at least one more reloading manual and check out some of the sites on the internet. Check out the powder manufacturers website, as well as the bullet makers website.

If you stick around, and most of us definitely hope you will, you will learn who is who and learn even more. I have been reloading for almost a year now and have collected all kinds of data on my loads.

I do not use Lee Dippers, so I can not tell you anything about them. I do use Unique when I load some of my .45LC rounds. My data sheet for Alliant Powder - Unique says that for a 250gr bullet, a minimum charge of 7.0 grains and a maximum charge of 8.0 grains. If I remember correctly, when I loaded below 7.0 grains, I ended up with a squib (bullet stuck in the barrel). I reload for my New Vaquero also.

I pretty much stick to either universal powder (Hodgdon.com) and IMR 700-X (imrpowder.com) and I am in love with the 255 grain Semi-wad cutters.

Please note: This data has worked for me. I can not guarantee it will work for you or is even safe in your gun. It is your responsibility to take care and do research on each load you develop. (I think this meets the disclaimer requirements for the TFL.)

What I am saying is: It is your gun and your responsibility. If someone comes on here and says, "Darn, 8.0 grains of Unique is too light, you need to load 24.5 grains to even get the bullet down range." I believe two things would happen. First, a lot of us would report the poster for being stupid while in possession of a key board and second, we would all chime in and tell you and him the info was wrong and dangerous. But ultimately it is your responsibility to ensure you only use safe data.

Have fun, be safe and soon you will learn that reloading is addictive.

shafter · December 24, 2009, 07:38 AM

Thanks for the advise! I think I'll invest in a set of dippers or a scale

hodaka · December 24, 2009, 08:38 AM

You have gotten good advice and you intend to take it. That is good and should probably end this thread. Out of curiosity though I tested the 7cc dipper and Unique and got 5.5 gr. This is much too low for the .45 Long Colt. The standard load for years has been 8.0 gr with a 255 cast slug. That is what I, and many others, use. Lately I have been using IMR's Trailboss, however, which has proven to be accurate and clean.

Best of luck with your new hobby (and new scale)!

CraigC · December 24, 2009, 10:37 AM

Lord have mercy, you need at least a couple loading manuals, no matter how minimalist you're trying to load.

Pathfinder45 · December 24, 2009, 12:20 PM

The dippers are fine but you ought to check them against a scale 'til you get a feel for them in order to be consistent. For Unique, 8 grains under 250 grain bullets is about right. I prefer a bit more; but I have the original Vaquero and 9.5 grains is probably a little overloaded for weaker guns.

TX Nimrod · December 26, 2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Out of curiosity though I tested the 7cc dipper and Unique and got 5.5 gr. This is much too low for the .45 Long Colt.

I'm not certain where this comment comes from, as charges much less than 8 grains of Unique are commonly used for the starting load with lead bullets in the 250-grain range. A 5.5 grain charge would be on the low end true - but certainly not much too low.

Lyman #48 - 6.0 start load
Hornady #6 - 5.0 start load

I use a bit more Unique myself, but I don't think that 5.5 grains would stick a 250-grain lead bullet. Regardless, the OP should invest in a scale and load between 7 and 9 grains of Unique, depending on the shape, diameter and hardness of his bullets.

.

Lost Sheep · December 26, 2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shafter

Thanks for the advise! I think I'll invest in a set of dippers or a scale

Read my post more carefully and you will see (by inference) this admonition:

"Invest in dippers AND a scale."

I am sure Pathfinder45 and hodaka agree.

Be careful and be cautious (not EXACTLY the same thing, so be both). Reloading ain't rocket science, but it is possible to have many of the same kind of accidents. But it is easier to avoid them if you go slow and pay attention. Uncle Buck's bullet stuck in the barrel is a case in point. Paying attention to the difference of a regular firing to the "feel" of the squib getting stuck in the barrel probably saved his gun, if not his hand from some degree of damage. 7 grains does seem a little heavy to produce a squib, but I wasn't there. 7 grains produces decent (38 Special speed) velocity out of my .357 cases, so I would think performance with 225 to 250 grain 45 Colt would be reliable. But I wasn't there. I would suspect a short charge or an oversized bullet. But I wasn't there, so it is speculation on my part. That's why we all PAY ATTENTION to what we are doing, and stay safe by so doing.

Lost Sheep.

paknheat · December 26, 2009, 07:43 AM

One other thing you may consider, If you are looking at black powder you may try IMR's TrailBoss. It was created with the Cowboy Shooter types in mind.Definetly a lot cleaner than BP. Most propellant manufactures are now posting load info on their websites and are there for the picking. You should never try to handload without using a scale, thats a BAD accident waiting to happen. If you are going to use a particular brand of bullet, look at getting that companys loading manual.I use the Lee dippers and love them.

Sarge · December 26, 2009, 08:08 AM

Actually if you've got an internet connection, you don't 'need' any manual at all. You have access to more good info via the web than we had from any three manuals, a scant 10 years ago.

What you do need is to get your data directly from reloading component, equipment and powder manufacturers' databases. Most of them also have an 800 number and a good staff of technical folks to answer any question you might have.

Malamute · December 26, 2009, 12:33 PM

You've gotten good advice so far. I won't elaborate on whats been said other than scond the thought to get a couple good manuals. A dipper set will get you by, tho the set and a scale is nice to confirm your loads.

As far as black powder, you generally do NOT want to load lower loads to start, black doesnt like air space. It seems to work best with about 1/8" compression, and some use a 24" or so drop tube to get the powder to settle well in the case (and still compress lightly).In the 45 Colt, with a 250 gr bullet, about 35 grains of black should work. Another point, the bullet lubes used for smokeless dont lube as well for black powder. A lube specially formulated for black will make clean up much easier, and gum the barrel up less. I think many of the negative comments about black powder come from peple using lubes and cleaning techniques that create the problem. I've rarely ever taken the action apart when shooting percussion black powder pistols, and see no need to in most shooting. Every now and then doesnt hurt tho.

Plain hot water cleans black powder fouling very well, and the heat dries the metal. A good drying with patches/rags/paper towels, then an oiling, and you're good to go.

Uncle Buck · December 26, 2009, 09:44 PM

Lost Sheep: My load was below 7.0 grains (I can not find my index card, but I think I loaded 6.0 grains). My minimum load, now, when using Unique is 7.5 grains. It shoots nicely and has a good recoil with-out being too strong for a weakling like myself to shoot.

Bluesfan · December 26, 2009, 10:14 PM

The .7 dipper is not going to give the correct amount of unique for 45 colt. However I do use quite a bit of unique for this caliber. Buy a Lee auto disk and get a scale. You should get good results with 7.5-8.0 of unique with a 255g cast bullet.

shafter · December 31, 2009, 03:37 PM

Well I took your advice and purchased a set of dippers and scales. I'm weighing my charges with the Lee Safety Scale and although its slow I managed to load a box of 45's and fired them this morning. It's really great to be loading my own cartridges!
I used 8grs of Unique powder and 250gr rnfp. I did the calculations for my components and my loads cost about .23 per round. Seems like incredible savings since I was paying almost .70 per round for factory ammo.
Thanks for your advice guys.

hodaka · December 31, 2009, 06:47 PM

Good for you. You will probably find that now that you are reloading you will spend a bunch more total dollars on shooting even though your cost per round will be much less. You will have a lot of fun though because you will shoot a whole lot more.

One more thing, you can speed up the process with the dippers, you will just need to see what they are actually throwing since Lee's table is not accurate. The dippers are repeatable, at least within a tenth or three, you just need to check what they are actually throwing with your scale.

Sport45 · December 31, 2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shafter

Well I took your advice and purchased a set of dippers and scales. I'm weighing my charges with the Lee Safety Scale and although its slow I managed to load a box of 45's and fired them this morning. It's really great to be loading my own cartridges!

Good for you. Welcome to the world of reloading! You never said what weight bullet you are loading, but I wouldn't expect 5.5gr of Unique to be a squib load under any bullet normal for that cartridge. I would expect it to be rather "dirty" since the pressure would probably be too low for a good burn.

Please keep in mind when you are researching load data that the "Ruger Only" loads don't apply to Vaqueros built after 2005 or so. Sometimes these will be listed as +P without the Ruger reference.

RMcL · January 1, 2010, 05:00 PM

The New Vaquero, while not as strong as the Ruger Blackhawk or "old" Vaquero, can take loads in the 20,000 psi range. How about a 280 grain SWC at 1050fps!

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...246partial.pdf

tag2501 · January 4, 2010, 10:06 PM

try this page - the data is pretty consistent with the major reloading guides. plus a little experimentation (clearly noted)

http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm

comparing multiple guides data is wise. Also, some firearms don't fit in the categories in the loading guides (example = for 45LC, there tends to be data either for SAA and clones, or for TC and Ruger. there are handguns in the middle (e.g. S&W N frames or model 25's)

December 23, 2009, 08:42 PM	#1
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	Advice on 45 Colt Hi, I'm new to the forum and new to reloading as well. I just bought a Lee handpress and wish to load 45's for my New Vaquero. I have a can of unique powder and am wondering if its safe to use the 7cc dipper provided or will I need a more precise set of scales. I'm trying to get by with a minimum amount of accessories. I don't want to load anything too hot, just replicate the original loads or a little less. Also, if I load black powder how many grains would be safe for my gun? Can I load the whole casing? Will I have to disassemble the gun to clean the inner workings or can I just take the cylinder out and scrub whatever is visible? I'm looking forward to your feedback. There's alot of good advice here!

December 24, 2009, 02:43 AM	#3
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Broaden your horizons. Use more than one manual. Les265, If you are reading the Modern Reloading, 1997 reprint, on page 94 (end of chapter 8). That is the page headed "Greatly reduced charges or squib loads". Light charges of fast burning powder can be loaded (even in large cases) and 6.4 grains of Unique seems to be a reasonable light charge for a light load in 45 Colt. Of course, when ANYONE gives you new information, check it out with an independent resource. The fact is, Lee's book gives very narrow ranges of loads. Other loading manuals provide a wider acceptable range. Of course, when ANYONE gives you new information, check it out with an independent resource. Shafter, welcome to the forum and welcome to reloading. I recommend spending the 10-15 dollars to get the full set of Lee Scoops. The set comes with a card that tells you how many grains of powder will be thrown with each scoop. However, the card is not perfectly accurate. Your scooping technique will vary the charge weight. But if you are consistent, whatever you throw will be consistent. That is why I also recommend a scale to weigh the charges you are putting in your cases. You should be able to find a used one in good condition, possibly at a gun show? Or pawn shop. For a quick test, bring a half-dozen 1/2" #6 wood screws with you and weight each one, then weigh them in pairs, trios, then four, five and all six. If the weights all add up. your scale is good. There are more scientific ways, but this is an expedient method to tell if the thing is consistent through the range of weights you will be dealing with in powders. Once you find a charge you want to load in your ammunition, there you have it. Check to make sure it is the same whenever you start a loading session (just in case your memory or notes are not perfect - better double check than sorry) and occasionally during your loading session (to make sure your technique is consistent). Scale, press, dies & case holder, dippers, safety glasses (you wear safety glasses when loading, right?, especially when working with primers.) cleanup stuff, a couple of loading blocks and some way to mount your press and you are pretty much good to go. check this location for my "10 Advices for New Reloaders" http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=387433 or if the link doesn't work, paste this into your browser thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387433 See posts 16 and 17 Lost Sheep Oh, by the way. Did I mention, When ANYONE gives you new information, check with an independent source? Here's my usual caveat: Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post. Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web. Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere. Lost Sheep

December 24, 2009, 12:20 PM	#8
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Get a Scale. The dippers are fine but you ought to check them against a scale 'til you get a feel for them in order to be consistent. For Unique, 8 grains under 250 grain bullets is about right. I prefer a bit more; but I have the original Vaquero and 9.5 grains is probably a little overloaded for weaker guns.

December 26, 2009, 08:08 AM	#12
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Actually if you've got an internet connection, you don't 'need' any manual at all. You have access to more good info via the web than we had from any three manuals, a scant 10 years ago. What you do need is to get your data directly from reloading component, equipment and powder manufacturers' databases. Most of them also have an 800 number and a good staff of technical folks to answer any question you might have. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

December 26, 2009, 12:33 PM	#13
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	You've gotten good advice so far. I won't elaborate on whats been said other than scond the thought to get a couple good manuals. A dipper set will get you by, tho the set and a scale is nice to confirm your loads. As far as black powder, you generally do NOT want to load lower loads to start, black doesnt like air space. It seems to work best with about 1/8" compression, and some use a 24" or so drop tube to get the powder to settle well in the case (and still compress lightly).In the 45 Colt, with a 250 gr bullet, about 35 grains of black should work. Another point, the bullet lubes used for smokeless dont lube as well for black powder. A lube specially formulated for black will make clean up much easier, and gum the barrel up less. I think many of the negative comments about black powder come from peple using lubes and cleaning techniques that create the problem. I've rarely ever taken the action apart when shooting percussion black powder pistols, and see no need to in most shooting. Every now and then doesnt hurt tho. Plain hot water cleans black powder fouling very well, and the heat dries the metal. A good drying with patches/rags/paper towels, then an oiling, and you're good to go. __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

December 23, 2009, 10:47 PM	#2
les265 Member Join Date: March 29, 2008 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 33	According to "Modern Reloading" by Lee, you cannot use the .7 dipper and Unique (with a 250 gr. lead bullet) for loading the 45 Colt. The .7 dipper will give you about 6.4 grs. The recommended load in Lee's book is 8 grs. of Unique. According to the Lee manual, Universal powder and the .7 dipper with a lead 250 gr. bullet gives a velocity of 800 fps. I haven't used Universal, but I have heard it is quite a bit cleaner burning than Unique, but has the same characteristics. So, I would either get a powder measure and scale if you want to use your Unique, or get a bottle of Universal and use your dippers. Get the Lee reloading manual for alot of information.

December 24, 2009, 07:18 AM	#4
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Welcome to the forum. You have stumbled upon a nest of truths here. My biggest advice would be to get at least one more reloading manual and check out some of the sites on the internet. Check out the powder manufacturers website, as well as the bullet makers website. If you stick around, and most of us definitely hope you will, you will learn who is who and learn even more. I have been reloading for almost a year now and have collected all kinds of data on my loads. I do not use Lee Dippers, so I can not tell you anything about them. I do use Unique when I load some of my .45LC rounds. My data sheet for Alliant Powder - Unique says that for a 250gr bullet, a minimum charge of 7.0 grains and a maximum charge of 8.0 grains. If I remember correctly, when I loaded below 7.0 grains, I ended up with a squib (bullet stuck in the barrel). I reload for my New Vaquero also. I pretty much stick to either universal powder (Hodgdon.com) and IMR 700-X (imrpowder.com) and I am in love with the 255 grain Semi-wad cutters. Please note: This data has worked for me. I can not guarantee it will work for you or is even safe in your gun. It is your responsibility to take care and do research on each load you develop. (I think this meets the disclaimer requirements for the TFL.) What I am saying is: It is your gun and your responsibility. If someone comes on here and says, "Darn, 8.0 grains of Unique is too light, you need to load 24.5 grains to even get the bullet down range." I believe two things would happen. First, a lot of us would report the poster for being stupid while in possession of a key board and second, we would all chime in and tell you and him the info was wrong and dangerous. But ultimately it is your responsibility to ensure you only use safe data. Have fun, be safe and soon you will learn that reloading is addictive. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

December 24, 2009, 07:38 AM	#5
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	Thanks for the advise! I think I'll invest in a set of dippers or a scale

December 24, 2009, 08:38 AM	#6
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	You have gotten good advice and you intend to take it. That is good and should probably end this thread. Out of curiosity though I tested the 7cc dipper and Unique and got 5.5 gr. This is much too low for the .45 Long Colt. The standard load for years has been 8.0 gr with a 255 cast slug. That is what I, and many others, use. Lately I have been using IMR's Trailboss, however, which has proven to be accurate and clean. Best of luck with your new hobby (and new scale)!

December 24, 2009, 10:37 AM	#7
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	Lord have mercy, you need at least a couple loading manuals, no matter how minimalist you're trying to load.

December 26, 2009, 07:43 AM	#11
paknheat Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2006 Location: East Texas Posts: 334	One other thing you may consider, If you are looking at black powder you may try IMR's TrailBoss. It was created with the Cowboy Shooter types in mind.Definetly a lot cleaner than BP. Most propellant manufactures are now posting load info on their websites and are there for the picking. You should never try to handload without using a scale, thats a BAD accident waiting to happen. If you are going to use a particular brand of bullet, look at getting that companys loading manual.I use the Lee dippers and love them.

December 26, 2009, 09:44 PM	#14
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Lost Sheep: My load was below 7.0 grains (I can not find my index card, but I think I loaded 6.0 grains). My minimum load, now, when using Unique is 7.5 grains. It shoots nicely and has a good recoil with-out being too strong for a weakling like myself to shoot. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

December 26, 2009, 10:14 PM	#15
Bluesfan Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2009 Posts: 102	The .7 dipper is not going to give the correct amount of unique for 45 colt. However I do use quite a bit of unique for this caliber. Buy a Lee auto disk and get a scale. You should get good results with 7.5-8.0 of unique with a 255g cast bullet.

December 31, 2009, 03:37 PM	#16
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	Well I took your advice and purchased a set of dippers and scales. I'm weighing my charges with the Lee Safety Scale and although its slow I managed to load a box of 45's and fired them this morning. It's really great to be loading my own cartridges! I used 8grs of Unique powder and 250gr rnfp. I did the calculations for my components and my loads cost about .23 per round. Seems like incredible savings since I was paying almost .70 per round for factory ammo. Thanks for your advice guys.

December 31, 2009, 06:47 PM	#17
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Good for you. You will probably find that now that you are reloading you will spend a bunch more total dollars on shooting even though your cost per round will be much less. You will have a lot of fun though because you will shoot a whole lot more. One more thing, you can speed up the process with the dippers, you will just need to see what they are actually throwing since Lee's table is not accurate. The dippers are repeatable, at least within a tenth or three, you just need to check what they are actually throwing with your scale.

January 1, 2010, 05:00 PM	#19
RMcL Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 273	Loads for the New Vaquero The New Vaquero, while not as strong as the Ruger Blackhawk or "old" Vaquero, can take loads in the 20,000 psi range. How about a 280 grain SWC at 1050fps! http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...246partial.pdf

January 4, 2010, 10:06 PM	#20
tag2501 Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Posts: 18	try this page - the data is pretty consistent with the major reloading guides. plus a little experimentation (clearly noted) http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm comparing multiple guides data is wise. Also, some firearms don't fit in the categories in the loading guides (example = for 45LC, there tends to be data either for SAA and clones, or for TC and Ruger. there are handguns in the middle (e.g. S&W N frames or model 25's)