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Old April 14, 2018, 03:24 PM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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It didn't happen at the school. It happened at the men's restroom on the Deerfield Beach Pier. On a Sunday. That would be "during the weekend", not "over the weekend". Those phrases have different meanings and are not identical.
I appreciate your well intended correction, but the good folks at Merriam-Webster differ considerably from your view.

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Over the weekend means the same thing as during the weekend. It is used to talk about something that happened (or will happen) between Friday evening and Sunday evening.
http://learnersdictionary.com/qa/Ove...at-the-weekend
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Old April 14, 2018, 04:12 PM   #27
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I appreciate your well intended correction, but the good folks at Merriam-Webster differ considerably from your view.
I see your, and their point. I admit I was wrong to categorically state the phrases had differences, were not identical and implied that this was always the case. I apologize for that error. Thank you for pointing it out.

I can clearly see how, in certain contexts they are meant to convey the exact same ideas.

However, I hold that in other contexts, they convey (by implication) somewhat different ideas.

He left his gun in the bathroom during the weekend.
He left his gun in the bathroom over the weekend.

The grammar teacher may grade both as allowed and acceptable (and I didn't allow for that, so on that, my bad,,)

but to me they imply different things, about the duration of the gun's stay in the bathroom. Maybe that's just me, reading context into things, because of the way I speak, but in this case, "over" to me, implies longer duration than "during".

Sorry for the thread drift, I stepped in it, will try not to step in that same place again.
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Old April 14, 2018, 08:34 PM   #28
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We all know that the only sure way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
Actually we don't "know" that. Many people believe that, but there are enough examples of shooters being stopped by unarmed heroes, to make that a questionable assertion.
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Old April 15, 2018, 03:37 AM   #29
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Actually we don't "know" that. Many people believe that, but there are enough examples of shooters being stopped by unarmed heroes, to make that a questionable assertion.
It not on the media agenda to report armed people stopping armed bad guys.
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Old April 15, 2018, 07:53 AM   #30
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We all know, there are people who should never handle a firearm. I see certain people at the local range, and immediately leave. I prefer to be alone when I instruct the grandkids. Anyway, my local range is not a distance shooting range. I go to an abandoned strip mine & have a good 2,000 yards.
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Old April 15, 2018, 08:21 AM   #31
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We all know, there are people who should never handle a firearm. I see certain people at the local range, and immediately leave.
One otherwise nice morning i was swept three times with loaded handguns, twice by folks with concealed carry permits.
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Old April 15, 2018, 08:28 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Money is a very real factor when it comes to community safety, be it paying for more cops or things like bridge repairs.
Money is only a factor when it's a factor.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-ang...e-pretty-cool/
In the race to combat climate change, the city of Los Angeles is employing a surprising new tactic -- covering its streets in a grayish-white coating known as CoolSeal. It's sprayed onto the roadway with trucks, then spread across the surface with squeegees. However, its impact extends far beyond the edge of the pavement ...

CoolSeal, which is made by a company called GuardTop, helps to reflect solar rays off asphalt so that less heat is actually absorbed ...

The innovative sealcoat is admittedly very pricey, with L.A. reportedly footing a $40,000 bill for every mile it "paints." But advocates say its benefits may just be priceless.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...317-story.html
L.A. budget report warns of $224-million deficit next year
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Old April 15, 2018, 09:48 AM   #33
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Money is only a factor when it's a factor.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-ang...e-pretty-cool/
In the race to combat climate change, the city of Los Angeles is employing a surprising new tactic -- covering its streets in a grayish-white coating known as CoolSeal. It's sprayed onto the roadway with trucks, then spread across the surface with squeegees. However, its impact extends far beyond the edge of the pavement ...

CoolSeal, which is made by a company called GuardTop, helps to reflect solar rays off asphalt so that less heat is actually absorbed ...

The innovative sealcoat is admittedly very pricey, with L.A. reportedly footing a $40,000 bill for every mile it "paints." But advocates say its benefits may just be priceless.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...317-story.html
L.A. budget report warns of $224-million deficit next year
I am sure you were trying to make some sort of point, but I don't see what it is. Money is ALWAYS a factor when it comes to paying for things like police protection. LA may be operating in a deficit for now, but that cannot continue as places like Detroit have figured out, cutting back on their police protection in the face of ongoing financial issues.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...lice_offi.html
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Old April 15, 2018, 10:22 AM   #34
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If we are serious about making schools hard targets, why don't we hire real armed guards?
There are a few problems with armed guards. If they were private armed guards, they were probably turned down by law enforcement for different reasons and might not be a good choice to guard children. If it were law enforcement personnel, it would be terribly boring for them and they might feel (or it would be) punishment for not doing their normal law enforcement duties well. They would be a little like an armed crossing guard.
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Old April 15, 2018, 12:06 PM   #35
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FWIW, this go-round I've noticed the anti-gun folk on many occasions have stated their proposals (a ban of the AR-15 or a limit on magazine capacity) wouldn't stop ALL shootings (so much for #neveragain) but they would reduce the number and severity of mass shootings.

(I disagree but that is not my point for this post.)

If the anti-gun forces are admitting their proposals won't stop ALL the shootings then we MUST be allowed to have the same standards! That is, NOTHING is going to be fool proof!

1. Yes an armed guard in school might not engage but the idea is still sound and could be tried.
2. Most teachers might not want to carry but let's allow the ones that WANT to carry get the training and be allowed to carry a gun in school.
3. An armed guard or a teacher might be irresponsible. Let's deal with that when it happens.

We HAD this debate about arming airline pilots. And there WAS an incident where a pilot had a negligent discharge. And they dealt with that. And the program continues and while it is NOT foolproof it is better than not having the pilots armed.
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Old April 15, 2018, 04:18 PM   #36
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It not on the media agenda to report armed people stopping armed bad guys.
And its also not on the agenda of the adherents to discuss the number of murders, suicides and ND killings. I think if we add it up the odds are thousand to 1 that someone with a gun saves a situation (used or not)

If you look at the consequences of armed police (necessary) vs the number of times they deploy lethal force and kill or injure someone who is totally innocent ?

These are people who have some degree of training and often a lot.

Arm teachers and you will find that most of them (even if they will take a gun) can't handle it normally let alone a crisis situation.

Ever watch the auto series on Audi and the "unintended" acceleration? Very few cars have the torque to overcome full brakes . Audi is not one of those.

Call it the law of unintended consequences.

I have a close association with Aviation. A vocal minority of pilots wanted to be armed after 9/11. If you follow aviation incidents you would know you are lucky they can fly the airplane and some of the worst crashes are totally against training).

Anyway they got it, you had to pass training, requirement for a lock box in the cockpit as I recall.

With locked doors you don't need it and even an intrusions hoping you can deploy a gun and hit the person and not shoot up the airplane or your fellow pilot of flight crew?

On the other hand, FedEx when they had a suicide in the cockpit of an (DC-10 or MD-11) did some serious gyrations and took the guy off his feet (he did servery injure to one crew member)

Ergo, gt a solid door and no one is going to be standing up when the gyrations start, trust me, its a real challenge when you are strapped in to maintain control in what they call "unusual attitudes training" .

Quote:
We HAD this debate about arming airline pilots. And there WAS an incident where a pilot had a negligent discharge. And they dealt with that. And the program continues and while it is NOT foolproof it is better than not having the pilots armed.
How many incidents have armed pilots handled?

How many armed pilots are there per all pilots?

As a pilot I have to vehemently disagree, as one that has a locked door between you and any issue, taking a gun out of a lock box, shooting over your shoulder at a perp?

I could not disagree more.

They also did not deal with the gun issue, they may have taken it away from him, nothing changed.
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Old April 16, 2018, 12:56 PM   #37
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"...Teacher Left Gun in Restroom..." Cops have been known to do the same thing. Or worse. I don't see anywhere what and how much firearms training this teacher got. Assuming he volunteered and was just given the firearm.
"...cost is a huge factor against that..." Moreso in some places. Toronto, Canada's police budget is over a billion Cdn annually. Most going towards the $100 grand plus per annum pay roll.
"...Certified Law Enforcement Education..." Certified by who? Up here, it'd be unelected Provincial civil servants who know nothing about anything.
"...Looks like it didn’t take long for the “armed good guy” theory of school safety to be debunked..." A decidedly anti-firearm ownership article by the Miami Herald.
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Old April 16, 2018, 01:04 PM   #38
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The reality is that there will be issues and very likely in the wide spectrum of all armed guards/teachers across the country, vs ND, lost, stolen and mistakes in shooting that we see the police have all the time.

I saw what an armed good guy did once, shot the guy once, could not continue. Murder continued. Most likely outcome, unless well trained, not beneficial to bad.
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Old April 17, 2018, 02:11 AM   #39
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"...Teacher Left Gun in Restroom..." Cops have been known to do the same thing. Or worse.
Yep. And when that happens (and no one is hurt) its a small thing in the national news, if it even makes the national news at all. Its usually not that big news in the local press, but this case is different.

The "armed teacher" works at the school where there was a mass killing barely two months ago. THAT makes it "news".
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Old April 17, 2018, 04:42 AM   #40
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Quick solution. Make all Schools "NOT" a gun free zone. Then let the standards fall where they land. Cops/armed trained parents/armed teachers, Guards? Whatever.

The toilet gun left, the story. Way back when, when Toronto Cops carried Revolvers. Plainclothes Officer, left his duty snub nose on toilet top! BANG! Just as he rushed back in, the new male visitor, pointed it at the toilet, pulled the trigger "To see if it was real!"

Oh yes!

I very rarely use public toilets, except the standing area! But if I do, Glock 19 goes in underpants!
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Old April 17, 2018, 08:16 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Money is a very real factor when it comes to community safety, be it paying for more cops or things like bridge repairs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
Money is only a factor when it's a factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
I am sure you were trying to make some sort of point, but I don't see what it is. Money is ALWAYS a factor when it comes to paying for things like police protection.
Like Major League Baseball arguing on one hand that they ought to be exempt from the anti-trust regulations that govern other businesses because they are special and arguing on the other hand that they should be allowed to relocate franchises because they are a business like every other business -- money is not a factor until the man wants us to believe it is a factor.

Two hundred and fifty miles are less than 4% of the total 6700 miles of streets and roads that LA maintains. Covering 4% of the roads will do little to end "global warming", but at $40K per mile, it will cost them $10 million dollars.

If there is enough of other people's money to spend on fashionable projects -- when they are a quarter of a billion in the red -- then money for police and fire is not a factor.


https://www.creators.com/read/thomas...udget-politics
 
Budget Politics
By Dr. Thomas Sowell
March 5, 2013

At the local level, the first response to budget cuts is often to cut the police department and the fire department. There may be all sorts of wasteful boondoggles that could have been cut instead, but that would not produce the public alarm that reducing police protection and fire protection can produce. And public alarm is what can get budget cuts restored ...
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Old April 18, 2018, 11:24 PM   #42
johnwilliamson062
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If we are serious about making schools hard targets, why don't we hire real armed guards?
I was qualified as n armed guard for a while. It took 20 hours of training and passing a background test. I believe I was required to shoot just under 60 rounds. It was a joke. Most police sponsored firearms training is little better.

The officers who can shoot are mostly training on their own time and their own dime.
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Old April 19, 2018, 12:50 AM   #43
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I did not read the article.Apparently a concealed carry person who happened to be a teacher made a serious error while not in a school.
There are about 350,000,000 people in the USA. That makes for a nearly infinite number of little stories every day.
If a newspaper wants a headline about nearly anything to support an agenda,they can find a story to support it.
Pick any group,any subset of people,you won't have to wait long and one of them will make just about any mistake you want to exploit.
Fact is violent crime with guns is way down from where it was 10,15,20 years ago,
And the kids are probably statistically safer in school than they are at home.
I'm not making light of school shootings. Like airline crashes,they are horrible.
But we take greater risks every day without thinking about it.
Some are reluctant to accept that "only just a teacher"could possibly be as competent with a firearm as maybe 70% of the LEO's who got a gun with the badge and shoot a few rounds to qualify once a year.
Yet somehow they might believe they are far more qualified to be armed than any of the amateur civilians here on TFL.
Every day we face hundreds of other drivers of unknown to questionable competency on the road. We may have family with us,and 55 mph oncoming traffic. We trust a silly painted white line to keep us alive every day.
I'm in favor of losing the labels and stop looking down on the teacher who chooses to have some teeth and claws as a last line of defense to protect themselves and the kids.
We COULD think in terms of providing resources (training and ammunition,peers,a place to shoot,a "user group" to SUPPORT the teacher who choose to step up.

Everyone has a different idea of what "Armed Teacher"means.
Some pursue the argument we should not put the burden of defense on the teachers,etc,etc,etc. Actually,I agree with that point.
But it seems ironic that here,on these pages we support OUR right to carry,OUR right to be armed.....We say guns are for "When seconds count,and the police are minutes away.."
EXCEPT...for teachers.
No,don't put the school security responsibility on teachers,I advocate a team of at least two security personnel per school...

PAX can speak for herself,and I don't speak for her,but from her I get the concept of "Kornered Kat"

If a teacher is in a "Kornered Kat" situation with students,in gravest extreme with no other options (apparently it DOES happen) I want that teacher to have some 9mm fangs and claws.
Win,lose,or draw,I want that teacher to be able to fight.

If we can get the teachers allowed to be armed,FOLKS LIKE US can help give them the support to become and remain competent.

There are probably some potential 3 gun shooters among them.

This COULD make for some changes in the atitudes about the 2A at the school level.

Teachers skilled and familiar with firearms might be an important social change

Last edited by HiBC; April 19, 2018 at 12:56 AM.
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Old April 21, 2018, 04:39 PM   #44
dreaming
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A few points re arming teachers.

1. Many object that teachers are not trained to be SWAT officers. Nor are many LEO's trained for SWAT duties. No one proposes that teachers be turned into SWATers, but that does not mean they cannot be trained to better assure the safety of themselves and students.

2. Teachers are not screened to weed out persons unsuitable to be permitted to carry firearms for the protection of themselves and others. Setting aside 2A arguments to the effect that all of us have that right, unless we have lost it for some reason such as a felony conviction, no one is saying that teachers who wish to carry on campus cannot be screened and selected based on suitability.

3. Arming teachers is not going to stop the school killings. Few problems are solved by any one solution, which is not a valid reason not to implement an a partial solution.

4. Teachers want to be teachers and should not be forced to act as cops. Only open the program to willing teachers.
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Old April 26, 2018, 04:04 AM   #45
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The firing of a pistol, at a threat, anywhere is not brain surgery. With a female Teacher, a little more difficult, due to the dress of same. But a pair of pants, trousers, and a hang-free top, fixed. Align sights, press trigger?

The basics can be taught, in two hours. The harder skill? Shooting at a human being, if the internal fortitude required, is well established, and a target (bad person with a weapon) is found in a School. Hopefully, a teacher coming from behind! The ideal situation, front sight, press.

This will never be tested, till teachers are armed.
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Old April 26, 2018, 10:17 PM   #46
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Boxes and labels! Everyone seems to have a stereo typical idea of what a "teacher" is.
And some seem to have difficulty believing a "teacher" could be anything but a bumbling incompetent passive woman with a gun.
You might want to check your assumptions.

There ARE some teachers,male or female,who just self identify as a non-gun persons who are not interested.Thats OK. They won't cause any problems because they won't be armed.

IF there is a profile(IMO) of a person who is likely to be a liability armed in a school,its the MALE,perhaps fellow TFL member,who already "knows everything" You know,that guy on YouTube ??
You know,the guy we write threads about from incidents we experience at the gunshop or range.?

I worked in the public schools for 10 years.I met teachers who were skydivers,mountain climbers,kayakers,mountain bikers,and most have some form of fitness routine.

I'm saying most are far more active and fit than the "On the job retired pudgy donut munching School Resource Officer"

One of the teacher I worked with was attacked in her car by a creep with a hypo syringe. Her side interest away from the school was Roller Derby. She knocked the tar out of her attacker.

I don't know PAX. I read her stuff here.She has my respect. Among other things,PAX is a teacher.A firearms and self defense teacher.

It is my opinion that if you have a teacher who makes a commitment.."Not on my watch!!!" and sets to get the training and the practice, an instructor like PAX can turn that teacher into someone who will punch holes in a school murderer if he tries to get to her kids.

And I have no doubt a teacher who was a PAX student would be as safe and effective ...or more so..than the majority of us.

Lets not forget , Jeanne A.,2007,the New Life Church,Colorado Springs.She stopped an AR-15 Church shooting the would have been horrific.

The Washington DC officers who stopped the shooting of the Republican baseball practice,IIRC,were Women,who used courage and handguns to stop a nut with an SKS.

Not all teachers are Women,but so what? shooting is a skill that can be learned. SD is a mindset that can be found.

Julie Golob and many of her peers look a lot like many school teachers.

I believe a Woman School Teacher can be as strong,fierce and courageous as any other Warrior if you want to harm the kids.
Yes,they would do well to acquire the tools and skills...so?how is that different for a teacher than any other person who takes CCW seriously? Including us?

Some folks here sound the same,exactly,as all the hand wringing skeptics who predicted more concealed carry permits would lead to a wild west bloodbath in the streets. How is that working out?
I don't think legit carry folks have been a problem.

Labels and boxes!!

Teachers are made of the same stuff YOU are,and I stand for their right to be armed as much as I stand for YOUR right to be armed,
Especially when they are the Sheepdog watching over the kids at the final,last ditch level.

Last edited by HiBC; April 27, 2018 at 03:58 AM.
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Old April 27, 2018, 01:21 AM   #47
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Widen the scope - everyone is hung up on the word "teacher". Change that to "faculty and staff". Changes things a bit.
I agree, force no one to do this, but recognize the right to armed self defense inside the school.
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Old April 27, 2018, 08:56 PM   #48
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As a former intern at K-12 schools and a professor at various community colleges now, I'm generally against arming teachers. I say that because the vast majority of hobbyists don't train enough to be proficient shooting under pressure, and a lot of the teachers in schools aren't even hobbyists. A three-day familiarization course and some range time will impart neither the skill nor the confidence necessary for a teacher to take down a determined and likely better-equipped foe, especially when adrenaline is surging. Now, veterans, hobbyists, and others who have relevant training and experience who also happen to be faculty or staff, that's another matter.
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Old April 27, 2018, 10:41 PM   #49
HiBC
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There is a great difference between "arming teachers" and "allowing teachers to be armed"

A large percentage of police officers were as unfamiliar with firearms as this stereotypical "teacher" we are talking about.The LEO got their first gun with the badge.Many armed police officers ,such as a school SRO,are no more firearms competent than a teacher would be if that teacher decided "I've had enough.It stops here,with me. I will train,I will become competent,and if a murderer comes to my class,I will fight!"(As opposed to "Hey,Officer Murphy!! You have not done your annual range qualification yet! Get that done this week,along with blood borne disease training")

I just do not understand or accept the attitude that teachers are somehow not capable of developing the skills to be competently armed,and,as a subset of people,no doubt some teachers ARE skilled with arms.
I do agree,a three day workshop is not enough.To be armed requires a commitment to a change in lifestyle.
If a teacher can commit to Roller Derby,or Tai Chi,or Zumba,or skiing,or having a child or a dog,they can make a life/death commitment to being armed IF THEY MAKE that choice.
A three day workshop won't make you a parent.Its a chosen life path.Teachers do it.
I DO understand how the Dem Party has a relationship with teacher unions,and there IS a powerful force in the schools to comply with the PC "agenda". If a six year old kid can get "zero tolerance" expelled for the shape he chewed his pop-tart ...something is not sane.

I have enough faith in the rational minds of SOME teachers to believe that they are thinking" I want to be armed"

FWIW,I spent 10 years working in k-12 public schools. Custodian.

Last edited by HiBC; April 27, 2018 at 11:08 PM.
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Old April 28, 2018, 07:21 AM   #50
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HiBC, I agree that teachers are more than capable of developing those skills. However, I should mention that I was an intern in NY, where the vast majority of teachers I know have no real desire to carry a weapon, and therein lies the problem. If someone is reluctant to carry, they likely will not practice, and then we have someone who is armed, be it an LEO or a teacher, who probably shouldn't be. Your point that we can allow teachers who have the skills, or the desire to obtain them, to be armed is well taken.
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