Suppressor law & fingerprints

junkpile · April 19, 2007, 11:28 PM

To get a suppressor, you have to go through an NFA dealer, get your fingerprints taken, pay tax, wait, etc.

What happens to your fingerprints, after they've been sent into the NFA (or FBI), and a background check has been run? Are they kept on file? I haven't been able to find the answer online. (Mostly concerned with the process, not what happens after you pass the check).

cheygriz · April 19, 2007, 11:37 PM

The fingerprints are kept on file in the DOJ computer system until you die. But not to worry. If you've ever been fingerprinted for any reason your prints are already in the DOJ computer!

That's not necessarily a bad thing though. If you get badly injured, or get a head inury where you're unconscious, or have amnesia, you WANT them to be able to identify you.

junkpile · April 20, 2007, 02:55 AM

Never been fingerprinted, (never even been pulled over!), and for now, I'll keep it that way. ('swhy I didn't get a Florida Carry Permit). Just don't feel comfortable with the concept. Not a legal concern, of course. Thanks!

pesta2 · April 20, 2007, 07:03 AM

Specifically your fingerprints will be on computer file at the FBI in Clarksburg West Virginia. If you have been in the military you are already on file there dating way back. No names but someone I know works there an saw my great uncles file from where he enlisted in the Marines during WW2. All information was put into the computer system and the paper filed destroyed.

Syntax360 · April 20, 2007, 06:57 PM

Go the Trust or LLC route and you will not need to submit your fingerprints.

junkpile · April 21, 2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Go the Trust or LLC route and you will not need to submit your fingerprints.

I'm not familiar. A legal reference to a loophole, or a reference to The Turner Diaries and something else?

I'll eventually submit my fingerprints for one reason or another, it's just something that sticks in my craw right now.

raymond- · April 21, 2007, 10:11 AM

he's referring to the fact that if you have a CORP or TRUST type entity, you
are still legally able to own Title 2 firearms. as such, you apply under the
company name and if otherwise qualified to own firearms, BATF will process
your paperwork as a company. A company is not a person, thus, a company
does not have the ability to submit fingerprints. Similarly, a company is unable
to submit a photograph since it is not a person.

Under this method of Title 2 ownership, you submit no fingerprints, no photo-
graphs, and one does not need to beg/attain CLEO endorsement on their
Form 1 or Form 4 applicaiton.

My last half dozen Title 2 purchases were made under company applications.
Seattle Police Dept has summarily rejected all NFA applications sent to them
for approval/sign off....so instructed by their Chief.

Syntax360 · April 21, 2007, 05:07 PM

Raymond summed it up nicely. The Trust route is also usually the cheapest way to obtain class 3 toys. What state do you live in? That would help us give you further information about setting up a trust, etc.

don_hamer · May 23, 2007, 02:28 PM

I would think they keep them to identify you if you happen to do something illegally... but I'm not sure. Good Question.

VUPDblue · May 23, 2007, 04:02 PM

I'm not 100% sure if the FBI keeps your prints on file or not after you submit a F4 or F1. I do know that they are submitted as part of the background check progress.

Jason F · May 23, 2007, 04:16 PM

How would you go about setting up and what type of trust do you set up? (I'm in Georgia if it matters)

Another thought I wondered about today.

Let's say you start the paperwork to buy a can. You receive the can a month or two later. When you go to buy another one, do you have to go through the process all over again or are you good to go now that you've been through the paperwork- you know, go in, buy it, and walk out with it (instead of letting it sit in your FFL's safe for a few months). Is that possible, or do you have to jump through the hoops (and the inevitable waiting) for every purchase?

Thanks guys and gals!

PPGMD · May 23, 2007, 05:36 PM

You can use the same trust to purchase as many NFA weapons as you can afford.

Anyways you need a Revocable Living Trust, you can set them up with a lawyer, or you can use any of the many packages of software to write one up.

Once you have the trust all you have to do is keep a notarized copy in a safe place like a safety deposit box, and send a copy of it every time you want to purchase a new Title II item with the Form 4.

p99guy · May 23, 2007, 08:43 PM

Jason with a trust, the wait is about 35days for the forms/tax stamp to get back to you. And yes you have to go through the whole process each time.

setting up a revocable living trust streamlines the process by about 11 days,
and does away with the two passport photos, 2 fingerprint cards, and chief LEO signature.

you will send in :
2 form 4's (if doing a SBR yourself, it would be 2 form 1's)
2 18USC compliance forms
1 copy of "certification of Trust"
200.00 check or money order

Jason F · May 23, 2007, 10:46 PM

Is there a comprehensive site on the web to review all this kind of information? Also, I found a "living trust- revocable" on uslegalforms.com, but when reading the preview it's set up between 2 people it sounds like... would that be myself and my wife (as the trustee?)?

I have a lawyer I know, but I hate bugging him with this sillier questions and like to only bug him for free advice with the trickier stuff.

Thanks again for the answers guys... this sounds interesting- even if doing it as a "just in case" type of thing, to get it set up before it would ever be "disallowed" or some such nonsense.

Syntax360 · May 24, 2007, 09:20 AM

I just had a form 4 processed and it took 18 days mailbox to mailbox using the trust method.

Silvanus · May 24, 2007, 02:04 PM

Why do you not want to have your fingerprints taken? This is an honest question, I'm just curious. I couldn't care less, personally.

Crosshair · May 25, 2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Why do you not want to have your fingerprints taken?

Why do they need my fingerprints? They know who I am, what NFA items I have, and where I live. Why would they need my fingerprints? How would having my fingerprints help them?

NRA-LIFE-MEMBER · May 30, 2007, 11:45 PM

I just started looking onto the trust issue. Thanks for the information..

dyoun06 · May 31, 2007, 01:45 PM

I have a question on the revocable living trust... I live in Houston, Texas and want to buy a suppresor (either a can or integral for my browning buckmark -- Dragonfly Silencer - Advanced Armament Corp.). Once I do a revocable living trust and send in the $200 tax to BATF what other info do I need on the suppressor? Can I use this to buy whatever 1 suppressor I want or must I have a deposit through a CLASS III prior?

p99guy · May 31, 2007, 03:55 PM

you are Paying the 200.00 dollars tax to have specific NFA item transfered from the dealers name over to your trust. With my dealer, I usually buy the item he has in inventory then we sit down and fill out the paperwork to be sent off to ATF...along with 200.00...(HE)mails them,then we wait about 33 days for them to arrive back in (his) mailbox.

When the approved Form 4 with affixed tax stamp gets back to him, we fill out a form 4473 just like buying a deer rifle from him...then I can then take possession of my new suppressor and go home with it.

get your trust set up, copy your certification of Trust...take it and money over to see your local class III dealer who will assist you in filling out the form 4's and 18 USC compliance forms for what you are going to purchase from him or through him.

PAR · June 1, 2007, 08:36 PM

Don't want to steal anyone's thunder but here's an excellent site for all your silencer questions, dealers and general information.

http://www.silencertests.com/

HK94.com · June 3, 2007, 02:35 PM

Not to make you more paranoid but your fingerprints are the least of your worries.

The FBI maintains 2 million plus DNA profiles in their Combined DNA Index System or CODIS.

Trust me when I tell you that all they need is a DNA sample the size of a pin head to generate a profile on you.

DNA can be extracted from your ear, saliva, can of soda you just drank, the tissue you just threw away, your trash can outside chock full of your DNA from discarded food.

p99guy · June 3, 2007, 06:32 PM

PAR, Im also a member at silencertests.......oh, and yeah(Dont lick your envelopes/stamps)

PAR · June 4, 2007, 09:33 AM

P99guy - yes I recognized your screen name. Just sent my paperwork off for a another this weekend - an EVO 9. Last one took 21 days door to door using a trust; hopefully, this one will be the same or less, given that I'm using the same dealer.

Where in Texas are you?

p99guy · June 4, 2007, 07:18 PM

PAR, Im in North Fort Worth

April 19, 2007, 11:28 PM	#1
junkpile Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2007 Posts: 358	Suppressor law & fingerprints To get a suppressor, you have to go through an NFA dealer, get your fingerprints taken, pay tax, wait, etc. What happens to your fingerprints, after they've been sent into the NFA (or FBI), and a background check has been run? Are they kept on file? I haven't been able to find the answer online. (Mostly concerned with the process, not what happens after you pass the check). __________________ Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war

April 19, 2007, 11:37 PM	#2
cheygriz Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: high up in the rockies Posts: 2,289	The fingerprints are kept on file in the DOJ computer system until you die. But not to worry. If you've ever been fingerprinted for any reason your prints are already in the DOJ computer! That's not necessarily a bad thing though. If you get badly injured, or get a head inury where you're unconscious, or have amnesia, you WANT them to be able to identify you. __________________ If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.

April 20, 2007, 02:55 AM	#3
junkpile Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2007 Posts: 358	Never been fingerprinted, (never even been pulled over!), and for now, I'll keep it that way. ('swhy I didn't get a Florida Carry Permit). Just don't feel comfortable with the concept. Not a legal concern, of course. Thanks! __________________ Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war

April 20, 2007, 07:03 AM	#4
pesta2 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2006 Location: Fairmont, WV Posts: 1,682	Specifically your fingerprints will be on computer file at the FBI in Clarksburg West Virginia. If you have been in the military you are already on file there dating way back. No names but someone I know works there an saw my great uncles file from where he enlisted in the Marines during WW2. All information was put into the computer system and the paper filed destroyed. __________________ http://www.stevekonya.com

April 21, 2007, 10:11 AM	#7
raymond- Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 179	he's referring to the fact that if you have a CORP or TRUST type entity, you are still legally able to own Title 2 firearms. as such, you apply under the company name and if otherwise qualified to own firearms, BATF will process your paperwork as a company. A company is not a person, thus, a company does not have the ability to submit fingerprints. Similarly, a company is unable to submit a photograph since it is not a person. Under this method of Title 2 ownership, you submit no fingerprints, no photo- graphs, and one does not need to beg/attain CLEO endorsement on their Form 1 or Form 4 applicaiton. My last half dozen Title 2 purchases were made under company applications. Seattle Police Dept has summarily rejected all NFA applications sent to them for approval/sign off....so instructed by their Chief. __________________ raymond- 47.5N 122.2W

April 20, 2007, 06:57 PM	#5
Syntax360 Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 694	Go the Trust or LLC route and you will not need to submit your fingerprints.

April 21, 2007, 05:07 PM	#8
Syntax360 Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 694	Raymond summed it up nicely. The Trust route is also usually the cheapest way to obtain class 3 toys. What state do you live in? That would help us give you further information about setting up a trust, etc.

May 23, 2007, 02:28 PM	#9
don_hamer Member Join Date: May 23, 2007 Posts: 29	I would think they keep them to identify you if you happen to do something illegally... but I'm not sure. Good Question. __________________ Don Hamer Spring Branch, Texas Lifetime NRA Members, Southern High Rollers http://www.thefirearmdirectory.com - Add Your Firearm/Gun/Weapons Website

May 23, 2007, 04:02 PM	#10
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	I'm not 100% sure if the FBI keeps your prints on file or not after you submit a F4 or F1. I do know that they are submitted as part of the background check progress. __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

May 23, 2007, 04:16 PM	#11
Jason F Member Join Date: September 27, 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20	How would you go about setting up and what type of trust do you set up? (I'm in Georgia if it matters) Another thought I wondered about today. Let's say you start the paperwork to buy a can. You receive the can a month or two later. When you go to buy another one, do you have to go through the process all over again or are you good to go now that you've been through the paperwork- you know, go in, buy it, and walk out with it (instead of letting it sit in your FFL's safe for a few months). Is that possible, or do you have to jump through the hoops (and the inevitable waiting) for every purchase? Thanks guys and gals!

May 23, 2007, 05:36 PM	#12
PPGMD Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Posts: 348	You can use the same trust to purchase as many NFA weapons as you can afford. Anyways you need a Revocable Living Trust, you can set them up with a lawyer, or you can use any of the many packages of software to write one up. Once you have the trust all you have to do is keep a notarized copy in a safe place like a safety deposit box, and send a copy of it every time you want to purchase a new Title II item with the Form 4.

May 23, 2007, 08:43 PM	#13
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	Jason with a trust, the wait is about 35days for the forms/tax stamp to get back to you. And yes you have to go through the whole process each time. setting up a revocable living trust streamlines the process by about 11 days, and does away with the two passport photos, 2 fingerprint cards, and chief LEO signature. you will send in : 2 form 4's (if doing a SBR yourself, it would be 2 form 1's) 2 18USC compliance forms 1 copy of "certification of Trust" 200.00 check or money order __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

May 23, 2007, 10:46 PM	#14
Jason F Member Join Date: September 27, 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20	Is there a comprehensive site on the web to review all this kind of information? Also, I found a "living trust- revocable" on uslegalforms.com, but when reading the preview it's set up between 2 people it sounds like... would that be myself and my wife (as the trustee?)? I have a lawyer I know, but I hate bugging him with this sillier questions and like to only bug him for free advice with the trickier stuff. Thanks again for the answers guys... this sounds interesting- even if doing it as a "just in case" type of thing, to get it set up before it would ever be "disallowed" or some such nonsense.

May 24, 2007, 09:20 AM	#15
Syntax360 Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 694	I just had a form 4 processed and it took 18 days mailbox to mailbox using the trust method.

May 24, 2007, 02:04 PM	#16
Silvanus Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2005 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 1,324	Why do you not want to have your fingerprints taken? This is an honest question, I'm just curious. I couldn't care less, personally.

May 30, 2007, 11:45 PM	#18
NRA-LIFE-MEMBER Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2007 Location: Birth State of Daniel Boone Posts: 100	I just started looking onto the trust issue. Thanks for the information..

May 31, 2007, 01:45 PM	#19
dyoun06 Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2007 Posts: 133	Question revocable living trust I have a question on the revocable living trust... I live in Houston, Texas and want to buy a suppresor (either a can or integral for my browning buckmark -- Dragonfly Silencer - Advanced Armament Corp.). Once I do a revocable living trust and send in the $200 tax to BATF what other info do I need on the suppressor? Can I use this to buy whatever 1 suppressor I want or must I have a deposit through a CLASS III prior?

May 31, 2007, 03:55 PM	#20
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	you are Paying the 200.00 dollars tax to have specific NFA item transfered from the dealers name over to your trust. With my dealer, I usually buy the item he has in inventory then we sit down and fill out the paperwork to be sent off to ATF...along with 200.00...(HE)mails them,then we wait about 33 days for them to arrive back in (his) mailbox. When the approved Form 4 with affixed tax stamp gets back to him, we fill out a form 4473 just like buying a deer rifle from him...then I can then take possession of my new suppressor and go home with it. get your trust set up, copy your certification of Trust...take it and money over to see your local class III dealer who will assist you in filling out the form 4's and 18 USC compliance forms for what you are going to purchase from him or through him. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

June 1, 2007, 08:36 PM	#21
PAR Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: North Texas Posts: 22	Don't want to steal anyone's thunder but here's an excellent site for all your silencer questions, dealers and general information. http://www.silencertests.com/ Last edited by PAR; June 3, 2007 at 02:00 PM.

June 3, 2007, 02:35 PM	#22
HK94.com Junior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Posts: 5	Not to make you more paranoid but your fingerprints are the least of your worries. The FBI maintains 2 million plus DNA profiles in their Combined DNA Index System or CODIS. Trust me when I tell you that all they need is a DNA sample the size of a pin head to generate a profile on you. DNA can be extracted from your ear, saliva, can of soda you just drank, the tissue you just threw away, your trash can outside chock full of your DNA from discarded food. __________________ Happiness is a warm gun...

June 3, 2007, 06:32 PM	#23
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	PAR, Im also a member at silencertests.......oh, and yeah(Dont lick your envelopes/stamps) __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

June 4, 2007, 09:33 AM	#24
PAR Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: North Texas Posts: 22	P99guy - yes I recognized your screen name. Just sent my paperwork off for a another this weekend - an EVO 9. Last one took 21 days door to door using a trust; hopefully, this one will be the same or less, given that I'm using the same dealer. Where in Texas are you?

June 4, 2007, 07:18 PM	#25
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	PAR, Im in North Fort Worth __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"