Hunting Deer with a 400 gr Speer 45-70 government load - Page 2

GeauxTide · November 20, 2017, 10:25 AM

I loved my .45-70, loading 405 Missouri Bullets LFN to 1500fps. I HAVE become more recoil sensitive after 2 spine surgeries, so I sold it. 20 years ago, I pushed everything to max because I could.

Hanshi · November 20, 2017, 05:11 PM

I have a Marlin 45/70 I bought new in the 1970s. I can't begin to recall the deer I've killed with it. My load of choice is the 400 grain Speer sp at 1800fps. Yep, it does kick, but it also lays deer low. The load is accurate and effective and that's why I like it.

**44 AMP** · November 23, 2017, 02:57 AM

If you're taking deer with the Speer 400gr FP in the 1800fps range, and you haven't had one (or more) come apart, consider yourself lucky.

Its not a constant at that speed, but it can happen. Deer can still be DRT, and usually is, but that bullet isn't built for that speed. And I can tell you from personal experience that if you jack the speed up to 2100fps, (.458 Win) they act like very LARGE varmint bullets!

That bullet is built to give expansion at the low end of .45-70 speeds (black powder speed ~1200fps), and they will work well driven a bit faster, but from what I've seen, 1800fps is the edge of where they start coming apart.

There are lots of other bullets that are built to take that kind of velocity (the Hornady 350gr RN is an excellent one), just not that Speer 400 FP.
Hardcast 400gr bullets at 1800 perform very well, don't shed bits of jacket into the meat, and will eventually stop a couple feet deep in the first tree thick enough that they run into after going through the deer.

The Speer 400gr is a great bullet, excellent for a lot of things, but you CAN drive them too fast in modern guns with heavy loads.

Stats Shooter · November 23, 2017, 08:46 AM

Quote:

If you're taking deer with the Speer 400gr FP in the 1800fps range, and you haven't had one (or more) come apart, consider yourself lucky.

Way to be a wet blanket 44AMP

Actually, I know I'm on the ragged edge with it. I also have 200 405 gr weld cores that are DESIGNED to be pushed between 1700fps and 2300 fps according to weld core. The jacket is very thick.

Thanks for the heads up. I know some bullets can be pushed too hard if they are not designed to handle it.

agtman · November 23, 2017, 10:01 AM

It's always a rookie mistake to go afield under-gunned.

Nope, a thinking hunter always matches his cartridge selection to the species of critter being taken.

Don't be that rookie ... In this case, you should be hitting the deer fields or forests with the venerable 460 Weatherby Mag.

kraigwy · November 23, 2017, 10:12 AM

I shot a Creedmoor match (BPCR) put on buy a guy who had several records in BPCR shooting and BP Silhouette.

Thinking it was like a cast bullets in a pistol/revolver where I need hard cast and high velocities.

Shooting 800-900 & 1000 yards my bullets were tumbling. I was using the Browning's Model 1895 45-70.

Kenny told me to try soft lead and keep the velocities to normal Army 45-70 loads so I backed off to about 1200 fps (535 gr slug). My accuracy improved quite a bit and the recoil was much less which also helped my shooting.

Another benefit is I dont have to have separate loads to worry about getting mixed up and fired in my '73 Springfield Trapdoor.

I figured a million buffalo where taken with the Army's loading so it should be fine for deer size animals.

In my 50 Cal. inline muzzle loader I found that soft cast mini balls (sized to .501) shoot better then the jacketed sabot rounds.

Another reason to like the mild Army loading is that it makes it easier to get youngsters involved in BPRC Shootings.

Though she shoots up my ammo faster then I can load it.

YMMV, folks and guns like different loading. The main thing is we're out there enjoying shooting sports.

ireload2 · December 11, 2017, 01:10 AM

The various repeaters like the Marlin are not real 45-70s since they cannot handle the 500 grain govt. loads. Load them hot with 400 grain bullets and they are only fit for a few rounds while hunting. I like to shoot a lot of rounds and the 45-70 is very good for that application using cast bullets and BP equivalent velocities. The best 45-70 rifles for high volume shooting are single shots weighing 10 to 12 lbs.

If you are only a hunter you might not understand but for some of us shooting, not hunting is the most valued activity. I have been shooting 45-70s since 1972 and that includes about a dozen 45-70 rifles. There is little point to the heavy loads since your 44 Mag suggestion can work the other way too. If you are set on heavy loads buy a 460 Weatherby. I am sure it will satisfy your curiosity about heavy loads and how they kill 80 lb southern whitetails.

Kreyzhorse · December 11, 2017, 09:00 PM

I've killed deer with standard 300 vs Winchester loads in my 45-70. Don't hand load but always want to load some hotter rounds for my Ruger No. 1.

If by chance you drop one and get a Recovered bullet, I'd love to see it.

As far as overkill, my buddy dropped a doe with his 375 H&H. Overkill? It was dead before it hit the ground. My 7 Rem Mag did more damage on the doe I killed this year than the 375 did to his.

Dufus · December 11, 2017, 09:47 PM

I have killed deer with my 375 H&H and I shot one with my 460.

The 375 H&H used a 250 gr Barnes original and the 460 used a 400 gr Barnes Original.

Both were a lot less than full level loads...a little more than the book listed start levels.

Lots less meat damage than other calibers.

November 23, 2017, 02:57 AM	#28
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	If you're taking deer with the Speer 400gr FP in the 1800fps range, and you haven't had one (or more) come apart, consider yourself lucky. Its not a constant at that speed, but it can happen. Deer can still be DRT, and usually is, but that bullet isn't built for that speed. And I can tell you from personal experience that if you jack the speed up to 2100fps, (.458 Win) they act like very LARGE varmint bullets! That bullet is built to give expansion at the low end of .45-70 speeds (black powder speed ~1200fps), and they will work well driven a bit faster, but from what I've seen, 1800fps is the edge of where they start coming apart. There are lots of other bullets that are built to take that kind of velocity (the Hornady 350gr RN is an excellent one), just not that Speer 400 FP. Hardcast 400gr bullets at 1800 perform very well, don't shed bits of jacket into the meat, and will eventually stop a couple feet deep in the first tree thick enough that they run into after going through the deer. The Speer 400gr is a great bullet, excellent for a lot of things, but you CAN drive them too fast in modern guns with heavy loads. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 23, 2017, 10:01 AM	#30
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	Overkill at its finest ... It's always a rookie mistake to go afield under-gunned. Nope, a thinking hunter always matches his cartridge selection to the species of critter being taken. Don't be that rookie ... In this case, you should be hitting the deer fields or forests with the venerable 460 Weatherby Mag.

November 23, 2017, 10:12 AM	#31
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I shot a Creedmoor match (BPCR) put on buy a guy who had several records in BPCR shooting and BP Silhouette. Thinking it was like a cast bullets in a pistol/revolver where I need hard cast and high velocities. Shooting 800-900 & 1000 yards my bullets were tumbling. I was using the Browning's Model 1895 45-70. Kenny told me to try soft lead and keep the velocities to normal Army 45-70 loads so I backed off to about 1200 fps (535 gr slug). My accuracy improved quite a bit and the recoil was much less which also helped my shooting. Another benefit is I dont have to have separate loads to worry about getting mixed up and fired in my '73 Springfield Trapdoor. I figured a million buffalo where taken with the Army's loading so it should be fine for deer size animals. In my 50 Cal. inline muzzle loader I found that soft cast mini balls (sized to .501) shoot better then the jacketed sabot rounds. Another reason to like the mild Army loading is that it makes it easier to get youngsters involved in BPRC Shootings. Though she shoots up my ammo faster then I can load it. YMMV, folks and guns like different loading. The main thing is we're out there enjoying shooting sports. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 11, 2017, 01:10 AM	#32
ireload2 Junior member Join Date: December 23, 2016 Posts: 30	The various repeaters like the Marlin are not real 45-70s since they cannot handle the 500 grain govt. loads. Load them hot with 400 grain bullets and they are only fit for a few rounds while hunting. I like to shoot a lot of rounds and the 45-70 is very good for that application using cast bullets and BP equivalent velocities. The best 45-70 rifles for high volume shooting are single shots weighing 10 to 12 lbs. If you are only a hunter you might not understand but for some of us shooting, not hunting is the most valued activity. I have been shooting 45-70s since 1972 and that includes about a dozen 45-70 rifles. There is little point to the heavy loads since your 44 Mag suggestion can work the other way too. If you are set on heavy loads buy a 460 Weatherby. I am sure it will satisfy your curiosity about heavy loads and how they kill 80 lb southern whitetails. Last edited by ireload2; December 11, 2017 at 01:15 AM.

December 11, 2017, 09:00 PM	#33
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	I've killed deer with standard 300 vs Winchester loads in my 45-70. Don't hand load but always want to load some hotter rounds for my Ruger No. 1. If by chance you drop one and get a Recovered bullet, I'd love to see it. As far as overkill, my buddy dropped a doe with his 375 H&H. Overkill? It was dead before it hit the ground. My 7 Rem Mag did more damage on the doe I killed this year than the 375 did to his. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

November 20, 2017, 10:25 AM	#26
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	I loved my .45-70, loading 405 Missouri Bullets LFN to 1500fps. I HAVE become more recoil sensitive after 2 spine surgeries, so I sold it. 20 years ago, I pushed everything to max because I could.

November 20, 2017, 05:11 PM	#27
Hanshi Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2017 Posts: 239	I have a Marlin 45/70 I bought new in the 1970s. I can't begin to recall the deer I've killed with it. My load of choice is the 400 grain Speer sp at 1800fps. Yep, it does kick, but it also lays deer low. The load is accurate and effective and that's why I like it.

December 11, 2017, 09:47 PM	#34
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	I have killed deer with my 375 H&H and I shot one with my 460. The 375 H&H used a 250 gr Barnes original and the 460 used a 400 gr Barnes Original. Both were a lot less than full level loads...a little more than the book listed start levels. Lots less meat damage than other calibers.