Questions: How to shoot correctly

[Highesthand]

Thanks everybody for the great advice.

I personally have not read the books yet, but I will definitely look into them.

Nevertheless, I went to the gun range a few times this month just to practice. I shot while keeping the great advice in mind and managed to tighten my groupings a lot!

My shots are varying from left to right much more so than they are up and down, but I'm definitely getting there

Great advice here. If you are to the point that you are trying to tighten groups out at 25 yards, you need to get a gun that is capable of one inch groups at 25 yards. Almost no stock semi for $500 or less is capable of that. You will need to be quite selective. Most revolvers over $500 will do that, but you'll need to master the long double action pull.

Unfortunately, I live in NYC so it's pretty much next to impossible for me to get a license and purchase a firearm. At the moment, all the firearms I am using are stock rentals from this nifty place in Jersey. I've mostly been using 9MM and .40 cals but I have heard that 1911's are great and I am wanting to try out the Colt Commander or Colt Gold Cup, both of which are .45ACP.

[darkgael]

"next to impossible to get a license and purchase a firearm"

Not true. I live in NYC. I own a number of handguns and shoot them regularly at a gun club five blocks from my house.
The process is straightforward.
To get a license, you just need to fill out the application properly (it is available online), submit it in person at Police Plaza along with the necessary fees (you will have to be fingerprinted).
Then you wait.....THAT is a PIA. If you are not a felon and have no legal restrictions against you, you WILL be issued a license and a purchase order.
Pete

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/fi...ormation.shtml

[DMK]

I'm confused, I thought follow through meant not releasing the trigger until the gun is finished recoiling.

Also stay focused on the front sight after the gun has fired.

One of the things that really helped me when I first started shooting, was someone telling me never to look at the target after you fire. You try to keep your focus on that front sight while you press and reset the trigger.

In fact, I try not to even look at the target until I'm done firing a string of shots.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by DMK

One of the things that really helped me when I first started shooting, was someone telling me never to look at the target after you fire. You try to keep your focus on that front sight while you press and reset the trigger.

In fact, I try not to even look at the target until I'm done firing a string of shots.

+1.

Peeking at the target between shots is a real accuracy killer.

I've written it numerous times, but while you're shooting, the target doesn't matter, since it's not one of the fundamentals and therefore can't help you shoot better. Instead, it's merely a recording device that records how well you executed the fundamentals each time you pressed the trigger. Look at it after you're done shooting. It should tell you what you already know, btw.

[DMK]

the target doesn't matter...Instead, it's merely a recording device that records how well you executed the fundamentals

I like that. That's a really good way of of putting it.

[FireForged]

honestly.. you need someone there with you to observe, correct and comment on what you are doing right and wrong.

[Highesthand]

Also stay focused on the front sight after the gun has fired.

One of the things that really helped me when I first started shooting, was someone telling me never to look at the target after you fire. You try to keep your focus on that front sight while you press and reset the trigger.

In fact, I try not to even look at the target until I'm done firing a string of shots.

Of course I repeat my sight alignments/picture right?

I'm going to have to look at the target at some point. Unless you mean don't break stance and check your shots.

[jabba21]

You can read and get advice and practice all you want and you may see some improvements but you need to seek professional training. If you're practicing the wrong things, the you're just forming bad habits that will be harder to break later.

Training and practice are not the same thing. You train so you know what to practice.

[Highesthand]

That's a pretty moot point though,

I go shooting mostly because I like shooting and I just wanna be great at it. Seeking professional advice is going a bit overboard.

That's like me liking basketball and going to basketball camp to better my game. I wouldn't do that for a hobby.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Highesthand

go shooting mostly because I like shooting and I just wanna be great at it.

Originally Posted by Highesthand

Seeking professional advice is going a bit overboard.

Those are contradictory statements. If one likes something and wants to get really good at it, he will seek out some professional instruction.

I know many guys who really like to drive and want to be good at it. They take classes. The folks I know who want to be good at golf get coaching from a pro on a frequent basis. I know several "hobby" equestrians, and they all have their instructors. The wingshooters and bird hunters I know who care about their performance all get some professional coaching from time to time.

[jabba21]

If that is your attitude about professional instruction, then you will never be "great" at shooting. I'm sure you will get by and be on par with other shooting friends that don't train, but you will never be great.

I know you said you wanted to do it as a hobby and if that's all you care about shooting for then you probably don't need any instruction. However, if you ever plan to use any of your firearms in a defensive role, you need training, period.

It baffles me that people will drop money and time on a day long CCW class and think they have the skills needed to carry and use a weapon. But those same people then refuse to drop money and time on a day long training session.

[darkgael]

[QUOTE]If that is your attitude about professional instruction, then you will never be "great" at shooting. I'm sure you will get by and be on par with other shooting friends that don't train, but you will never be great./QUOTE]

Hmm. I gotta disagree with that. Not that coaches are ineffective but it is entirely possible to learn to shoot well....even to the Master level without seeking professional coaching.
I suppose, though, a lot depends on what you consider great.

[Highesthand]

Those are contradictory statements. If one likes something and wants to get really good at it, he will seek out some professional instruction.

I know many guys who really like to drive and want to be good at it. They take classes. The folks I know who want to be good at golf get coaching from a pro on a frequent basis. I know several "hobby" equestrians, and they all have their instructors. The wingshooters and bird hunters I know who care about their performance all get some professional coaching from time to time.

Okay forget I said great. We both clearly have different definitions of great.

That said,

You can be "great" at something without ever having professional advice. Of course, getting professional advice will get you good quicker, but you can still get to a point where you're considered really good without ever dropping money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying shouldn't seek out advice, but rather that you can get advice for free. You can get good by being conscious of what you're doing, taking a video and posting that video on forums, asking some really good people you see to give you tips, etc.

Also, not trying to be rude, but personally knowing people who pay for stuff just because they care about their own performance does not prove that to be great/good you need classes.

I personally know many people who have an amazing record boxing records at my gym without ever having paid for a personal training session with the head coach.

If that is your attitude about professional instruction, then you will never be "great" at shooting. I'm sure you will get by and be on par with other shooting friends that don't train, but you will never be great.

I know you said you wanted to do it as a hobby and if that's all you care about shooting for then you probably don't need any instruction. However, if you ever plan to use any of your firearms in a defensive role, you need training, period.

It baffles me that people will drop money and time on a day long CCW class and think they have the skills needed to carry and use a weapon. But those same people then refuse to drop money and time on a day long training session.

1. If you mean that I'd never be professional, then that is probably true. If you're saying I can't be great because I don't want to get a coach, then I disagree. What do you consider great BTW?

2. Training as in practicing? or training as in getting a coach to train you? If it's the latter, I disagree. You definitely need practice to use it in ANY situation, but a coach is unnecessary.

3. I don't know what you're saying.

Hmm. I gotta disagree with that. Not that coaches are ineffective but it is entirely possible to learn to shoot well....even to the Master level without seeking professional coaching.
I suppose, though, a lot depends on what you consider great.

Agreed

[raimius]

Having an experienced and knowledgeable teacher is HIGHLY beneficial. Most of the time, those people are called instructors. Some of the best of them make a job out of it.

If you know someone like Mike Pannone,Tom Givens, Paul Howe, or Massad Ayoob, etc., who just happens to give you expert advice for free, great! Most of us don't have casual friends at that level, and thus wind up going to commercially available courses.

[Jim243]

Those are contradictory statements.

No they are not, there is a difference between something as a hobby and something as an obsession.

Highesthand, you just keep having fun at it no matter what. And don't let it become an obsession but something you enjoy.

Jim

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Highesthand

Okay forget I said great. We both clearly have different definitions of great.

That said,

You can be "great" at something without ever having professional advice. Of course, getting professional advice will get you good quicker,...

And you will get better.

If you go it alone, you will go only as far as whatever natural talent you have will take you. If you have a great deal of natural talent, that might get you fairly far. But no matter how far you might be able to get on your own, good coaching will take you further.

Originally Posted by Highesthand

...You can get good by being conscious of what you're doing, taking a video and posting that video on forums, asking some really good people you see to give you tips, etc....

Yes, many people believe that. But many people are deluding themselves.

Rationalize all you want, and you of course get to decide how good you want to be. If you're satisfied, that's fine. Some of us aspire to greater things.

Also, beware the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[Highesthand]

Frank Ettin I think your first statement is something we both agree on.

I don't necessary agree with the statement that when people post things on forums to ask for advice, they are deluding themselves. A lot of times, you don't know that you know something, so a little clarification goes a long way.

Don't worry about Dunning-Kruger for me. But then again, that's what a person with Dunning-Kruger would say... I do want to post up pictures of my shooting career, even though it's relatively short, but the website doesn't allow me to post up pictures of more than a few KB.

Edit: I actually uploaded my stuff up on Imgur, so you guys can see how I improved from your advice alone.

Anyway, happy shooting.

No they are not, there is a difference between something as a hobby and something as an obsession.

Highesthand, you just keep having fun at it no matter what. And don't let it become an obsession but something you enjoy.

Jim

Cheers.

[ms6852]

When I was in the army I remembered when we had too turn in our 1911's for the berettas 9mm. The one I was given had fixed sights . If you aimed at center mass or the " X" on a full silhouette target the poi was at 5 o'clock. I had to aim at 11 o'clock to hit the X.

Have you adressed this issue if you happen to have fixed sights. If they are adjustable than the sights need to be adjusted.

Everyone here has given some great tips and the other one I would like to give is too consider practicing with a 22 or pistol that mimics the gun you are shooting with. But 22 pistols are finicky with certain brands so my recommendation would be a browning buck mark or the Ruger mkIII. These two pistols eat up any kind of bullet brand.

My reason for practicing with the 22 is that you can practice your trigger control, your shooting stance,picture sight alignment, etc. without breaking your wallet. You can shoot several hundred rounds, in one day which will allow you to build muscle memory and strength for only a few cents per round.

I practice my weak hand shooting with my buckmark and at the end of practice I shoot 2 mags of 45 acp and am pretty accurate at 25 meters with my 1911.

Good luck and don't give up.

[Highesthand]

When I was in the army I remembered when we had too turn in our 1911's for the berettas 9mm. The one I was given had fixed sights . If you aimed at center mass or the " X" on a full silhouette target the poi was at 5 o'clock. I had to aim at 11 o'clock to hit the X.

Have you adressed this issue if you happen to have fixed sights. If they are adjustable than the sights need to be adjusted.

Everyone here has given some great tips and the other one I would like to give is too consider practicing with a 22 or pistol that mimics the gun you are shooting with. But 22 pistols are finicky with certain brands so my recommendation would be a browning buck mark or the Ruger mkIII. These two pistols eat up any kind of bullet brand.

My reason for practicing with the 22 is that you can practice your trigger control, your shooting stance,picture sight alignment, etc. without breaking your wallet. You can shoot several hundred rounds, in one day which will allow you to build muscle memory and strength for only a few cents per round.

I practice my weak hand shooting with my buckmark and at the end of practice I shoot 2 mags of 45 acp and am pretty accurate at 25 meters with my 1911.

Good luck and don't give up.

Thanks for your words, and I'm far from giving up. I want to show everybody the improvements I made from this forum's advice alone.

I don't own any guns so all the guns I've shot are rentals. Every time I shoot, I had to basically do a test fire to see where it lands. Most of the time it's spot on in the X axis, but the Y axis is usually different. It's either centered or 6 o'clock. I am waiting to get my own sometime in the future.

[Highesthand]

Here are my pictures from my shooting career And yes these shots were all measured with a ruler

7 yard shooting:

http://imgur.com/wCxNahv
My first few attempts at 7 yards - This measured about 1 foot in diameter.

http://imgur.com/DjmykRH
Another attempt at 7 yards somewhere down the line - This measured about 9 inches in diameter.

http://imgur.com/mkmAPj9
Even further down - Measured about 6 inches in diameter.

http://imgur.com/Gh0hhYS
My most recent 7 yard shooting - 1 inch, not counting those two out-liers, 2 inches counting. I am now able to consistently shoot these. Of course once or twice I will F up and shoot an out-lier.



25 yard Shooting:

http://imgur.com/VMe0n8u
Not the first attempt, the first attempt I was too embarrassed to take a picture. This was maybe my 3rd attempt at 25. This measured about 8 inches not counting the outlier, and about 11 counting.

http://imgur.com/g96VsMl
Another attempt down the line. This one is much better and much more centered. This measured about 6 inches.

http://imgur.com/UsaBw4H
My most recent one at 25, and measured at 3.3in. This was shot after I took the forums advice and a couple of others. Someone recommended me to get a paper with an actual target rather than an outline of nothing. They said that it would give me an actual target, otherwise I will be shooting the same color target as the background. They also recommended me to shoot 5 shot groups instead and some other tips. I shot a lot of attempts that ranged from 3.5-4.5 on other attempts, but 3.3in was the best.




And there you have it. For those of you that doesn't seem like you can get better, remember, you will as long as you practice you will eventually get more accurate. Don't get discouraged. Enjoy the sport. Ask for advice. Compete with a rival. Most of all, have fun.

[jabba21]

I never said you couldn't become a better shot through practice.

However, I stand by my statement that if you plan on carrying a gun for personal defense, you need professional instruction.

If shooting at the range as a hobby is all you plan on doing, then professional instruction isn't necessarily needed.

[Jim243]

I am waiting to get my own sometime in the future.

I find it is far better with one of your own guns that you become very familiar with and a consistent sight picture. But, there too we sometimes fall into bad habits and have to correct our stance and grip to get back on track. Sometimes it is because of changing brands of ammo that throws us off. Sometimes we are just having a bad day.

I looked at your last set of targets, and thought that was excellent for 25 yards, that is a lot farther than I practice at (50 feet is my standard) unless it is with a rifle. Remember that a pistol is a tool to get to your rifle (LOL).

Have fun, stay safe and you are doing great.
Jim

[cougar gt-e]

Try dry firing trigger control drill.

Unload, show safe, point at a blank light colored wall and make a "perfect" sight picture. Equal space side to side post to notch with the top of the post flat with the top of the rear sight. Look at the front post, not the wall.

Hold that for 30 full long seconds. When you can just hold the sight picture PERFECTLY! for the entire 30 seconds, increase your time to 60, then 120.

After (and only after) you can hold alignment for 30 seconds, add the triggering motion. This is in addition to the previous drill. Hold the PERFECT alignment, trigger the gun maintaining the alignment. A DA weapon is perfect for this as it's able to be repeatedly triggered and is more difficult to hold still. Start with slow deliberate triggerings, as you are able to hold alignment, increase the rate of triggering....but only so fast as you just start to lose alignment. Start with 7-10 seconds per triggering and work time down to one per second.

Both drills are done on a blank wall so you are forced to concentrate on the front post sight alignment. Refrain from adding a target untill you have become competent holding alignment! As you gain ability with these, visit the range to validate the improvements.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by cougar gt-e

Try dry firing trigger control drill...

...As you gain ability with these, visit the range to validate the improvements.

The OP indicated they don't own their own gun, and is only able to currently shoot rentals at the range.

If the OP's interested in continuing working on the fundamentals to shoot small groups, though I would strongly recommend buying a decent .22, such as a Ruger MkIII, Browning Buckmark, S&W 617 (if you like revolvers) or the S&W 41 (if it's in your budget).

As to instruction, you can learn to shoot 25 yard cloverleafs on your own if you're motivated, honest with yourself, and a good student. It's easier to get there with instruction and your own gun, though.

Once you can regularly shoot 25 yard clover leafs with a centerfire handgun, it's time to start looking for an application. This often leads one to some form of competition. Shooting tight groups is fine, and a strong foundation in the fundamentals is absolutely essential if you want to do really well in various shooting disciplines, but there's a lot more to "good shooting" than shooting small groups on your own and at your own pace.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by jabba21

I never said you couldn't become a better shot through practice....

But you will get better with practice only if you practice doing things properly and well. Otherwise you are just ingraining bad habits and making them much harder to break.