The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 9, 2015, 08:46 PM   #1
Boogershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2014
Posts: 645
Starting a collection for my son.

My 9 year old son has started shooting more and more here lately. He shows much more interest in the old military firearms. All I have for him to shoot now is a m1 carbine and mousin 91/30. If anybody would like to help by providing me with a list of rifles still easily attainable and a ballpark figure of what I should expect to pay for them my son and I would greatly appreciate it.
Boogershooter is offline  
Old December 9, 2015, 09:11 PM   #2
lamarw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2010
Location: Lake Martin, AL
Posts: 3,311
I will not be of much help. The only two older military rifles I have were purchased within the last year. The first is a British Model No.4 MK1 which I paid $325.00. The other is a Turkish Mauser which is a 1938 KALE and is stamped assembled/manufactured in 1944. I paid $130.00 for it.

Both are in the original military configuration and certainly not pristine examples. Not sure I got a reasonable price on either one.
lamarw is offline  
Old December 9, 2015, 09:23 PM   #3
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
Might as well buy now, nothing will ever go down in cost.

Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk.lll and No. 4Mk.l or ll will run $300 and up in nice condition.
Mosin-Nagant M44 about $250 in like new.
M-N 91/30 in pre-1941 issue around $300.
Most US and German WWll will run $750 and up.

Handguns, figure a bunch more money.

Don't buy junk at any price. One gun a year, or two years, isn't a bad approach.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old December 9, 2015, 09:59 PM   #4
Boogershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2014
Posts: 645
Growing up I had access to many of these rifles but sadly I never bought any myself. I've inherited a few and these will remain in my collection til I'm very old or gone. Growing up tho I shot a m48 and k98 if my memory serves me correctly. Also a automatic that was called 8mm ikeem or something to that effect. The rest were the usual U S made rifles. I will try to start his collection with these first but I will acquire the cheaper stuff as I find it.
Boogershooter is offline  
Old December 9, 2015, 10:59 PM   #5
firewrench044
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Location: Fort Pierce, Florida
Posts: 381
Join the Civilian Marksmanship Program ( CMP )
and purchase an --
M1 Garand
M1C Garand ( sniper )
M1D Garand ( sniper )
1903 Springfield
1903A3 Springfield
1903A4 Springfield 9 Sniper )
And a variety of target rifles
and probably in about 6 months to a year a 1911 or 1911A1 pistol

The CMP also has many youth programs, it is worth looking into
firewrench044 is offline  
Old December 10, 2015, 01:34 AM   #6
Boogershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2014
Posts: 645
Firewrench I'd love to just go buy those rifles but upon my last check none of those were on the clearance rack. I'd also like to put him thru college someday. While I'm not exactly a poor man I can't just go buy all those rifles then in 6 months or a year purchase more. Did I mention I also have 3 more kids that need school supplies and groceries to eat. I will definitely check into the cmp. Thanks
Boogershooter is offline  
Old December 10, 2015, 12:35 PM   #7
michaelkih
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2015
Posts: 7
A Nagant revolver is pretty sweet.
michaelkih is offline  
Old December 10, 2015, 02:08 PM   #8
highpower3006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Location: Savannah TN
Posts: 1,217
You have kind of missed the boat on inexpensive military surplus rifles. If you want to get quality, you will have to belly up to the bar and pay the price.

So....what should you get? I would start with a M1 Garand while they are still somewhat affordable. Then I would start to look for better examples of British Enfields and US Springfields. And, while they aren't as cheap as they used to be, I would also try for a WWII K98. Another rifle that can be had relatively cheaply is a SKS.
highpower3006 is offline  
Old December 10, 2015, 02:28 PM   #9
Boogershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2014
Posts: 645
Yes sir I've got a couple guys looking for me a all matching m1garand. He has the m1carbine already and I dug out a moisin carbine to go with the 91/30. I definitely want the Enfields and springfields. All the Mauser I can find. The 30-40, the 303 and even the French mas. He's only 9 and has plenty of time to acquire these pieces of history. We made a deal last night that each one he picks out he will have to earn half the money for. I will pay the other half. My kids do get a small weekly allowance as long as mom approves of bedrooms and grades are kept up. They also get paid for helping and doing things they aren't required to do. Got to reward them for stepping up when they know they don't have to. He will have the option on his birthdays and Christmas for some of the cheaper ones. I know he's spoiled alot more than I was but atleast he works for it, when the wife ain't home.
Boogershooter is offline  
Old December 10, 2015, 09:20 PM   #10
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
I well recall the days of doing extra chores for gun money. Keeping the room clean and doing the dishes didn't pay, we were expected to do that stuff because we lived there, but lawn mowing, painting, landscaping, work type stuff, that all got a 'wage and hours' statement !

I think you were looking at an Egyptian Hakim, an 8mm semi-auto.

If you can get an FN49, in 7mm or 8mm Mauser, or 30/06, you've got a good piece, very popular. They run about $900 and up nowadays.

Anytime you can get a good quality milsurp for around $200, like that Mauser 71/84, grab it. Rule No. 1 is to not pass up deals on quality pieces, they don't turn up often.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old December 10, 2015, 11:25 PM   #11
Boogershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2014
Posts: 645
Thank yall for the info gentleman. Is shotgun news still a good place to try to find these? Also are there any particular dealers to stay away from? I'm not sure who's more excited about this endeavor, me or him but certainly a worthwhile effort. Gone are the days of buying crates of these rifles for $200. I can remember crates of sks's and moisins on the back isles of lgs's.
Boogershooter is offline  
Old December 11, 2015, 04:56 AM   #12
Gunplummer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2010
Location: South East Pa.
Posts: 3,364
Try Gunbroker.com or watch for local auctions. How can you forget the Japanese and Italian rifles? They are probably the cheapest deal right now on military guns. If you drift into foreign guns you may want to take up reloading.
Gunplummer is offline  
Old December 11, 2015, 07:09 AM   #13
BoogieMan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2012
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,217
Mosin Nagant was sadly the last of the bunch that are huge bargains. After that most military rifles went to select fire or FA and are not available without jumping through some hoops.
Swiss K31 is still a bargain under $400
Arisaka and Carcano can be had under $400 for nice examples.
If you shop around you can still buy Mausers reasonable prices. What I have learned and others have said, buy the best example you can find and afford. Also make sure you have a couple of clip/enbloc for the rifles you buy. Try not to buy import marked guns.
__________________
Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.
Milton Freidman
"If you find yourself in a fair fight,,,
Your tactics suck"
- Unknown
BoogieMan is offline  
Old December 11, 2015, 11:51 AM   #14
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
I enjoyed milsurps beginning back when $15-20 was a bargin price and $75 was for the pristine "collectables". Well before anything was available from behind he Iron Curtain. Of course, if I had been smarter then, I'd be better off now...

The era of the surplus military rifle is about over. The era of the cheap milsurp is long over. That being said, nice ones are still out there, and they don't have to cost you an arm and a leg, BUT you won't find many of them, if any of them still in the hands of the people who deal in surplus arms.

What dealers have today is the bottom of the barrel stuff that no one would buy before (but at today's high prices), and a handful of really nice prime collector pieces, at prime collector prices.

The Shotgun News might still be a worthwhile place to look, I don't know, I stopped reading it some time ago, a combination of my lack of interest (collection mostly filled) and difficulty finding what I was looking for (80%+ AR/AK stuff in the ads).

What you need to do, is check your local want-ad papers (if you live somewhere personal sales are still allowed). Go to the yard sales, (I know.., 98% will be a waste of your time, but you might find a diamond in all that mud) One friend of mine found a couple rifles at a yard sale, a semi .22 ($100) and an "old army gun" for $40. The old army gun he bought, was a 1903 Springfield, apparently a match gun from the 50s...and no, he wouldn't sell it to me for $40!, some friend

Of course, go to the gun shows, just be prepared for sticker shock.

And, make some friends...make some new "older friends". I recommend Veterans, and vets who were gun collectors are the best! They can tell you a lot, teach you a lot (some will even be true!!!) and best of all, sometimes they "clean out their closets", either by choice, or sad necessity.

One Vet I met (husband of a co-worker) got stuck in the VA crap, get rid of your guns (bows, swords, etc) or we won't treat you. Sad thing all around. I gave him 25% over market value for the one rifle he had, (a VZ24 in prime condition) because at the time, I could, he needed it more than I did.

I found a pair of milsurps in the Giant Nickle, a Moisin M38 and an SMLE No.4..
$150 for the pair. Older fellow, getting rid of stuff he was never going to use in his retirement...both of them look brand new.

Had a collector buddy clean out his safe a bit (to make room for other stuff), sold me 3 1917 dated guns (Swede Mauser, SMLE, & a Webley Mk VI) and a 1942 SVT 40 Tokarev for $425 cash some years back. About half the market rate at the time...

I think its great your 9 year old wants to shoot and shoot these kinds of guns.
DEFINATELY consider handloading. Not just for the money, but for the ability to actually have ammo, and ammo tailored for what you want.

My 14yr old daughter really enjoyed shooting an 8mm 98k with light cast bullet handloads. She didn't care for the military ammo much, it kicked more than she liked for just fun shooting.

You are looking for decent condition "shooters" right? Would be nice if they are good collector grade guns too, but not at the collector cost, right?

They're still out there, but most of them are off the mass market these days. What you want to find are the good ones bought 20,30, 40+ years ago, and well treated since. Good Luck! They're out there, but its a bit like prospecting, you look at a lot of rocks before you find the nugget.

The Japanese rifles (other than "last ditch) are well made Mauser style, but use proprietary ammo. I've got a couple 7.7mms and remember well the days when if you wanted ammo, you had to make it yourself. Today, you can get new brass, even ammo, sometimes. Not cheap though.

I would recommend staying away from the Italian and French guns, Carcanos, because of the ammo situation, mostly, and French guns because...they are French..

There's another kind of milsurp "value" you can sometimes find, one that "survived Bubba". These run from the guns butchered by "Bubba", but possibly restorable, to actual good condition refinishes done by people with professional (or near) level skill. One of my Arisakas has a nice blue, and nicely finished wood, done by the kid who last owned it, as a project. Full military trim (parts all there, uncut, etc), but refinished, so no histiorical value to a collector.

I agree with the advice to NOT EVER pass up a good deal on one of these guns, Its not like it used to be, and a good one, at a good price is slipping from uncommon to rare as we speak.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 11, 2015, 04:21 PM   #15
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
I would skip the Carcano, unless someone is practically giving away a nice example. The French MAS36 is a good buy, ammo is out there, most are in good shape, around $150-$200.

You're going to find some bargains, but realistically you're going to have to expect to spend around $500 for a good milsurp, once you get beyond the Mosin-Nagants and the Lee-Enfields. Any US milsurp is going to run you $750 and up.

Point to remember is that the inexpensive milsurps of today were the inexpensive milsurps of yesterday. They were considered less than desireable then and still are, and this is reflected in the price. You will not go wrong if you stick with US and Allied examples, and German gear, for getting started.

Don't get me wrong, I've got the Swiss K31, Turkish M38, Arisakas, that kind of stuff, too, but if you put your money in the better stuff first you will find that appreciation in value is your friend.

Another thing not to pass up is a good quality original bayonet or fighting knife. Snap them up when you can.

Do spend the price of one good milsurp on a reloading setup. A bag of 50 or 100 pieces of new brass will pay for itself ten times over before you have to scrap it. A Dillon 550B and several die sets will run less than $1000, if you bought it all at once.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old December 11, 2015, 10:26 PM   #16
Gavlan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2015
Posts: 108
I agree with all the above, my 10yr old grandson has shot most of my surplus rifles but finds the full length rifles difficult to handle, not the recoil but the physical size,, too long for the little fella.
On the other hand he enjoys shooting the smaller carbine rifles even though the recoil might be a tad more noticeable ( I cast and load for all my shooters so this is adjusted for him ), he likes the Mod 1916 Spanish loaded appropriately, the FR8 and my 2A1 Ishapore, ( not considered a carbine I guess ) and his fav the 1891 engineer carbine.

If you can find any at a decent price grab it..
Gavlan is offline  
Old December 12, 2015, 08:40 PM   #17
Gunplummer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2010
Location: South East Pa.
Posts: 3,364
Why not the Carcano? I was given one that was found in a barn when my sister bought the place. It is very ugly, but I bent the bolt and bought a cheap side mount scope for it. It shoots good. I have one deer to it. I just don't take it out much anymore because I am on a 99 Savage kick right now.
Gunplummer is offline  
Old December 13, 2015, 05:29 PM   #18
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
The M95 Steyr is still affordable as are various French rifles. The reason, for the most part, is availability of ammo and parts.

If you load your own ammo that helps a lot.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old December 14, 2015, 03:15 PM   #19
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,738
I think your son would love the light recoiling M96 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55. They have some on GunBroker. I have one Dated 1903.

Try to get one with all matching numbers. Ammo is still plentiful.

If you can find a BSA Martini Henry 22 rimfire rifle...grab it!!! I love mine.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell

Last edited by Erno86; December 14, 2015 at 03:36 PM.
Erno86 is offline  
Old December 15, 2015, 06:08 AM   #20
turkeestalker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2015
Location: Cottleville, Missouri
Posts: 1,115
Why not the Carcano?

I have one of the 91/38 model Carcano rifles that I bought when I was all of maybe 16 from a friend for a song. They weren't worth much more than that back then. I shot it quite a bit though I don't think I ever found a box of ammo for less than I paid for the rifle, unless it was old military stuff.

I learned at one point from a knowledgeable older fella, that the lug on the back of my bolt was barely hanging on by a couple threads, something common with the Carcano.

Had I continued shooting it like that, the lug would've likely left the back of the bolt at a speed directly proportional to the speed of the bullet exiting the front of the barrel, with my eye a couple of inches behind it. It was a happenstance situation that found him looking at the rifle and pointing that out to me... happenstance or divine intervention.

My point being, research what ever you purchase to learn about it. Know it's possible faults and weaknesses so that you can determine if what you're shooting is in fact safe, or known for being unsafe for any particular reason. Better still have someone who knows what to look for, look it over to determine that for you.
My gist is just be safe and keep your son safe.
__________________
Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!
turkeestalker is offline  
Old December 15, 2015, 01:04 PM   #21
BoogieMan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2012
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,217
Buzzcook- Not sure if your aware but the M95 ammo (8x56r) has been around from several makers. I have bought it as low as $15 a box. Love those rifles by the way. But, they do have a tad bit of recoil.
__________________
Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.
Milton Freidman
"If you find yourself in a fair fight,,,
Your tactics suck"
- Unknown
BoogieMan is offline  
Old December 16, 2015, 12:11 AM   #22
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
Boogieman, I knew there was some production, didn't know it was that relatively inexpensve.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old December 16, 2015, 01:22 AM   #23
Boogershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2014
Posts: 645
Thanks turk, and everyone else for the great advice.
Boogershooter is offline  
Old December 21, 2015, 09:31 PM   #24
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
Quote:
Is shotgun news still a good place to try to find these?
Shotgun News is nothing but advertisements and there is virtually nothing of interest sold by individuals any more. 98% of it is ads for black gun crap and gun gimmicks, which are generally as useful as fender skirts on a pickup truck.

Your best bet is to spend $30.00 and get a Curio and relic FFL for three years, which allows you to buy any C&R directly with out going through an 01 FFL. It also allows you to get (for example) SOG's catalog which is the Mecca of C&R guns at dealer prices, or Century Arm's catalog, also chock full of C&Rs.
__________________
As always, YMMV.
__________________________________________
MIIAA
SIFE
gyvel is offline  
Old December 23, 2015, 05:35 PM   #25
highpower3006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Location: Savannah TN
Posts: 1,217
Boogershooter, I like your idea of giving a military surplus collection to your son. You should take him to significant gun shows a few times a year. It is a wonderful way to spend some quality "guy" time with him.

My son grew up from a very early age going to gun shows with me and learning about firearms. I wish I had bothered to take pictures of him when he was 10 years old or so shooting one of my carbines or a M1 Garand. When he was as young as eight, he could field strip a 1911.

He still has an appreciation for guns and he loves the old guns more than he likes all the new stuff, although he likes just about anything that goes bang. I have sold off a great many of the guns that I had back then, but over the last few years I have begun to recreate some of my former collection. When I pass on my legacy will be that I gave him a love of firearms and a few guns to help him keep that appreciation alive. I added him to my NFA Trust so he can inherit the NFA items without any additional paperwork.

This is kind of an old picture of my long guns and I have added a few since this was taken.
highpower3006 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07842 seconds with 8 queries