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January 8, 2020, 01:47 PM | #26 |
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I'm in the market too after deciding that the 365 isn't "it".
I experienced issues at about the 200 round mark (misfeeds, failure to eject completely). It went back to Sig and they had it back to me in 2 weeks and they had replaced a few parts. In the 200 rounds since, the problem has happened far less frequently (2 or 3 times) but it has placed enough doubt in my mind that I'll probably trade it in. The leaders in the clubhouse to check out as replacements: Walther PPQ SC S&W M&P 2.0 SC (no safety model) Ruger Security 9 Compact Pro (no safety model) The S&W and the Ruger have models with safeties. The Shield is a really good gun. Had one and can say nothing bad about it. |
January 8, 2020, 09:20 PM | #27 |
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I still contend that ND's during holstering are not as critical of an issue compared to unintended discharges in crisis scenarios. I don't want to minimize the need for training and practice of good discipline and procedures to avoid ND's during routine activity, but the only reason these types of ND's are prevalent is because "routine activity" happens all the time. The incidence of these ND's over the relevant time period is low enough that millions of people get away with almost completely ignoring the risk.
The incidence of unintentional discharges during crisis situations is probably shockingly high. We know it happens because of startle response, sympathetic graps reflex, contralateral contraction, trigger affirmation, and because the "finger outside the trigger guard" is an un-natural and unintuitive contortion to maintain during a period of time when a person is probably experiencing sensory overload. It may happen for even more reasons we have yet to understand. If a person does not frequently encounter events involving the use or threat of lethal force, they probably have little idea of how they will actually perform under those conditions. What will happen to their trigger discipline? |
January 9, 2020, 07:55 AM | #28 | |
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Quote:
oh never mind->
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January 9, 2020, 09:20 AM | #29 |
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I know. I really want to feel differently about it as it fits my small hand pretty well and shoots great when it is working. It's also really nice to carry IWB.
I guess I could pick up another one and hope for an improvement and relegate the one I have to backup/range duty after I vet the new one. We'll see |
January 9, 2020, 01:47 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.p...+Compact&type= It might be a bit bigger than you Shield EZ. I manage to carry it AIWB. In addition, factory kits are available to change from one caliber to another (say to convert pistol from 9mm to .45 ACP or 10mm). Last edited by Pistoler0; January 9, 2020 at 01:53 PM. |
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January 10, 2020, 06:32 AM | #31 | |
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For those who want to continue to argue over whether thumb safeties are necessary, dangerous, ND incident rates, etc., the OP has already said
Quote:
adamBomb, if you're still considering the Shield EZ 9mm, you should probably be aware of this thread: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=605064 It appears that magazine availability is questionable. That alone would be enough to deter me, given number of competitors out there for which magazines are readily available.
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January 10, 2020, 04:53 PM | #32 |
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It's not just about thumb safeties. The EZ is a single-action gun. Does having a thumb safety make it safe after you disengage it? There are DA guns that have thumb safeties. If ND's are a concern and hence the cause for the thumb safety, wouldn't a DA with a thumb safety make more sense? Why have this thing if you're only going to disable it at the most critical moment and be left with a gun that is most prone to unintentional discharges?
Just how vulnerable the EZ's SA is to discharges, I don't know. I can see from video that it's not as short, crisp and light as a 1911-style (or a P238), but it is still a single-action. The EZ 9 magazine issue is temporary. |
January 11, 2020, 07:30 AM | #33 |
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Check out a CZ Rami or if you like polymer the CZ P-10S.
CZ makes great guns... very reliable and accurate out of the box |
January 11, 2020, 08:43 AM | #34 | |
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Quote:
Having personally had a ND with a pistol that had both a DA pull and a safety I can say that neither of these mechanical devices can compensate for people making mistakes. Around me locally talking to officers from multiple departments one of the largest sources of NDs in the home is people cleaning firearms and not clearing them first. This happens with an unfortunate amount of regularity. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; January 13, 2020 at 02:51 PM. |
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January 12, 2020, 09:16 PM | #35 |
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I carry a Shield, have for a couple years, and I'd honestly say there are better options out there. Its okay, not great. The trigger on the Shield 1.0 is "meh"; the grip texture on the 2.0 is way too rough for IWB (at least for me), though it does have a better trigger.
The Shield 1.0 price is good though. If I had expendable income, I might upgrade to a Glock 48 (big gun, longer bbl, but very slim, 10 rounds), or a Sig 365 (though it does have some spotty reviews). What I really want is a 3" SP101 in .327 Fed Mag, though I'm not sold on its practicality. I digress, semiauto forum. Whatever you choose, I really recommend no manual safety. It is "security theater," and under stress could get you killed. Keep your finger off the trigger. |
January 13, 2020, 03:46 AM | #36 |
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The majority of pistols sold are intended to flatter the marksmanship of people that will never be in a lethal force encounter.
Even so, I am not specifically recommending a DA with a manual safety. I only mentioned that they exist as an alternative to a single-action. I agree with you that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes, but single-actions may be tempting fate. DA/SA guns will also have single-action once they're initially discharged as you mentioned, but there are also DA-only guns. The most popular actions today are striker-fired guns with partially pre-cocked strikers and that is the alternative that the OP listed as considered besides the SA. Is that enough to make a difference? Again, I agree that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes -- but if a manual safety is regarded as essential to the OP, the risk the safety addresses should be looked at thoroughly -- because of this fact that "safety" is not just a "checkbox." I will also assert that "training" is not the rest of the answer. As you have witnessed, even trained people surrounded by vigilant instructors still make mistakes. We can only expect it would be worse without training and vigilance. I don't mean to become fatalistic about ND's. At the end of the day, all I can say is if ND's are a concern, hence the manual safety, watch out for single-action triggers too. Last edited by labnoti; January 13, 2020 at 03:52 AM. |
January 13, 2020, 08:47 AM | #37 |
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Out of everything mentioned I would go for the 380EZ.
It has fast become my EDC-CCW for most occasions as I've found it to be the "Goldilocks" of such SA pistols. Sized for a proper "man sized" grip, but still thin and dimensionally small enough to easily conceal well. Zero failures so far in all of mine thus far, 8 round capacity, nice SA trigger, light weight, shoots like about like a 22lr. I usually run PPU FMJ and am perfectly confident with it.
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January 13, 2020, 08:53 AM | #38 |
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Going to have to disagree with you on that one.
As far as I can tell, the largest group of handguns sold today are striker-fired semi-autos. Which do in fact have double-action triggers, they may be pre-set short and light pulls, but they are double-action.
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January 13, 2020, 08:54 AM | #39 | |
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Quote:
I have kids so god forbid they ever get their hands on a gun, wrestle me while I am carrying, etc. that safety is a big deal for me. Its one of the reasons I love my current mp bodyguard. Its DA, hammer fired, and has a safety. I think its great as a CCW gun. The issue I have with it is that while its great for a close encounter, its not going to do much good in any other situation. |
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January 13, 2020, 08:59 AM | #40 | |
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Quote:
I number of years ago we had a many page thread about this and the true definition of double action etc. I stand with my description above. In that context the striker fired pistols sold today are, for the most part, not true double action. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; January 13, 2020 at 02:48 PM. |
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January 13, 2020, 09:08 AM | #41 | |
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Quote:
As for the DA pull, I knew a man years ago who claimed to work for S&W when they were considering putting in the key locks in revolvers. The prevailing wisdom at the time was a child couldn't operate the DA trigger. They did a test with a number of children and an inert revolver to see if they could. The result? The kids used two hands, without prodding from anyone. Kids are smart. At the end of the day how a person raises his child is his business. I just get very leery when I hear of people thinking a DA pull or manual safety can stop a child. I too wrestle with my son. When I do the firearm comes off and goes in a secure location. At least a holster by itself should have some level of retention that should prevent a firearm from just falling out, even if just friction. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk |
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January 13, 2020, 09:28 AM | #42 | |
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Quote:
If the trigger is being used to cock the hammer/striker and release it... it is by very definition (not wiki or forum debate) "double action". I stand by the actual definition, not opinion
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January 13, 2020, 09:29 AM | #43 | |
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Quote:
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk |
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January 13, 2020, 10:45 AM | #44 |
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My most recent purchase and best buy I have found was a SCCY CPX-2 that I found on sale with a rebate with a total cost to me after rebate of under $150 and it has a lifetime warranty. It is hammer fired with a double action trigger. Buds has them for under $200 all the time. It weighs 15 ounces unloaded.https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.p...guns/manu/1187
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January 13, 2020, 11:42 AM | #45 |
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I have been listening to the Trigger wars for years on gun forums. Really do no care what someone else carries. Some like the lightest, trigger on a gun and breaks like glass. Fine, no problem with me.
I have owned all of them. Now just all DAO. Micro's for me are the Kahr and Beretta Nano/Carry Striker fired DAO. Some folks hate them, some love them. Not into high round count either and of course that bothers a lot of folks. Shoot as many guns as you can. Take your time, Be patient in your selection. Over the years the internet has come up with all kinds of Slogans etc. "The Best Safety is the one in your head" is very popular for folks that like no safety and light triggers. For me, it means that I use my head and mind to find what is best for me and what I personally believe in. I use my experience etc. to form that choice. Use your head and and be very careful in your selection. You cannot take back a bullet. |
January 13, 2020, 01:21 PM | #46 | |
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January 13, 2020, 02:07 PM | #47 |
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The majority are DA.
The PPQ is a true single action trigger (100% ready to fire). The Glock is not (67% cocked). |
January 13, 2020, 02:46 PM | #48 | |
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https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...tion-only-dao/ I believe the VP9 is as well but I am not familiar enough with the design to confirm or deny that. By the true definition of DAO, yes a Glock and even an M&P does finish the cocking of the striker with the trigger pull. As someone that learned on double action revolvers and then DA/SA pistols I recognize the difference between a double action firearm that is capable of fully cocking itself by the trigger mechanism alone and one that requires movement of the slide to do so. If the argument is that all that matters is that some cocking is performed, fair enough, but using the term "DA" (which is the term my original comment responded to) does not, to me, directly indicate that person is thinking of double action only (DAO) rather than say a hammer fired DA/SA or even a Walther P99 or Canik clone. There is a mechanical difference in how these firearms function and to me the nuance matters. If the response is, "You're just wrong, accept it and sit down", that's okay. Arguing ad nauseum over the semantics of this is something I've done before and I really don't want to do again. Moreso I don't think it matters for the OP's question when it comes to the use of a manual safety. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; January 13, 2020 at 02:54 PM. |
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January 13, 2020, 03:12 PM | #49 | |
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Quote:
Now what then is the ideal trigger weight in terms of safety? Idk. It would seem that the market has settled on anything from 5 lb. to 7.5 lb. on striker fired pistols, with some lighter than that. We've already covered that some striker fired pistols are single action despite outward appearance and similarity to other pistols. If the single action in question, whether an EZ or other pistol, results in the same trigger weight and travel as say a DAO pistol, does it matter then that the pistol is single action? From a drop safety perspective maybe, but if the focus is on what the shooter experiences doesn't the mechanism become sort of an abstraction? Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk |
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January 16, 2020, 11:17 AM | #50 |
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Hi, since kids and safety have been mentioned in relation to a reason for having a gun with a heavier trigger pull, I'd like to make two points:
1st: for those of us with toddlers in the house, these bed side safes (v-line or Fort Knox) are a great option: No batteries, so no way to get locked out of the safe. 2nd: And for people who want to have their gun more accessible in the house, this is one situation (gun for home protection, in a house with a kids, when the gun is NOT in a safe) where it could be a good idea NOT TO HAVE A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. There is no way that a toddler could rack a slide, whereas on the other hand it would be very easy for a toddler to flip a safety off and to pull the trigger. I don't believe in carrying empty chamber, but for a gun in a house with little ones, I think that it could be an option. Last edited by Pistoler0; January 16, 2020 at 11:25 AM. |
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