Possession of an AR pistol barrel?

[rickyrick]

I asked this in the rifle forum as part of an on going thread, but not answered.

Can I posses a pistol length barrel before I have a lower receiver, or a completed pistol upper before finishing a lower?

As parts come up for sale, the barrel may be purchased before a lower. Do I need a dedicated pistol lower first?

I looked this up, and no one seems to have a definitive answer.

[skizzums]

I never thought twice about it. I would say as long as the barrel stays unused and you have a completed rifle on the stocked rifle lower, you'd be fine. But maybe not smart to have a stocked lower with nothing to go on top but the pistol barrel. But this is just an assumption and there may not be a "right" answer.

[Sharkbite]

Possession of a barrel shorter then 16" WITHOUT a legally built pistol or stamped SBR lower could be construed a constructive possession.

Basically, you need to have the means to build a "legal" weapon to have the barrel laying around.

One option is to store the barrel at a buddies/family members until you have the appropriate lower on hand.

As an example, i would love to obtain a 14" barrel for my Bennilli M1. Until i form 1 that recv...i cant just have the barrel in the safe "waiting". At least not and be 100% compliant

[tobnpr]

You need to have the lower first, before the barrel. The S/N of the receiver is part of the information needed to complete the Form 1. You will also need the caliber, make, model, and the overall length of the rifle- so you'll need to know the length of the barrel you intend to install to be able to know the completed length of the SBR when assembled.

Complete the Form 1, send it in with your $200...and wait...
When you have your approval, buy the barrel.

I agree with Sharkbite. Possessing components that could be assembled into a SBR without the stamp would be constructive possession. I'm sure a lot of guys roll the dice on this, and that's obviously their prerogative. No vacation at Club Fed for me, though. I wouldn't own a short barrel without the stamp.

Do I need a dedicated pistol lower first?

New receivers are transferred on a 4473 as "Receiver". If made into a rifle by you, it will ALWAYS be a rifle ("once a rifle, always a rifle")- can never be made into a pistol. If made into a pistol first, it can go back and forth from pistol to rifle as desired.

[rickyrick]

Ok thanks,

I have a barrel on the way.... price was too good to pass up, and have no intent of putting it on a rifle.

I do have other ar rifles, so I may store it away from my home until I build a dedicated lower built. The lower will be obtained in short order.

How about marking my rifles to go with specific lowers? Like serializing the uppers?

[Sharkbite]

with specific lowers? Like serializing the uppers?

No need to do that. Once you have a lower that can legally be made into a pistol, you can have as many "short" uppers as you want

When i get a lower to make into a pistol, i get a copy of the 4473 that shows it was purchased as a receiver. Then i just make it into a pistol and take a date stamped photo. Shows the receiver was made into a pistol first. Good to go

[skizzums]

I guess I can add that lower's will probably never be cheaper than they are right now. might as well get one if their is a legal concern.Anderson, PSA etc have for under 50$.

[Lurch37]

I would have a lower laying around just to be safe. I'm not sure if your building a AR Pistol or a SBR, but if it's the latter you can build your AR Pistol, send in your paperwork for the SBR, and then once that's back you can add a rifle stock of your choice.

[rickyrick]

Yes great deals on lowers too. The AR market is a buyers market now. I guess that's why I got build fever this year.

Thanks for the info

[tobnpr]

The AR market is a buyers market now.

Just think....if they're making money spitting AR lowers out of a CNC at $40-$50 a pop, how much they making when they were $200, and sold out for a year.

No doubt, a lot of vacation homes in Vail and Maui were bought. Sorry, way O.T...

[44 AMP]

Possession of a barrel shorter then 16" WITHOUT a legally built pistol or stamped SBR lower could be construed a constructive possession.

Basically, you need to have the means to build a "legal" weapon to have the barrel laying around.

One option is to store the barrel at a buddies/family members until you have the appropriate lower on hand.

IF you give the short barrel upper to a buddy or family member to store for you, best ensure they don't have an AR rifle, either. Otherwise, they are in the same legal risk boat as you are.

As a practical matter, storage at another location would probably go a long way to keep you out of hot water, BUT legally, if you have access to that location, you could still be charged.

People have been charged when what they had was a STEN parts kit, an UNCUT pipe and instructions how to cut it. The small fact that they couldn't make a gun out of it without doing some work helped keep them from being convicted, but did nothing to prevent them being charged, and having to spend lots of money for legal aid.

If you have a pistol /SBR upper, and do not have an AR rifle at all, you got nothing the ATF cares about. BUT, if you have an AR rifle (or a receiver) then, if you have the pistol barrel and COULD put them together, they believe they have grounds to charge you with a crime. Basically, they could arrest you, and then let the courts figure out if you are actually guilty, a process for which you will have to pay....

Best to avoid the risk, get a correctly registered receiver FIRST, then look for the other parts.

Just my advice, and worth what you paid for it...

[rickyrick]

Thanks

I'll just pop in and purchase a lower before the barrel is in my posession

[Sharkbite]

That will make everything above board and prevent any chance of a problem

[kilimanjaro]

We all like to do things the way we'd like to do them, whatever it may be, but for something as serious as a possible federal felony, trying to save forty bucks here and there on parts is not intelligent. Break out the plastic and get the parts you need to be legal, submit the paperwork, then take your time with the rest of the bits and pieces.

[Gunfixr]

"constructive possesion" was a totally grey area, until the thompson contender case. Now, it is at least mostly defined.
Constructive possession is possession of a part, parts, or a set of parts that can only be used to make an illegal firearm.
Make sure you read that carefully. Only is important. This means that while you may have something like an ar rifle and an ar pistol, and pushing 4 pins and swapping uppers will make an illegal sbr, it cannot be assumed you will do that. However, having an ar rifle, and an ar pistol or ar sbr short upper with no pistol lower or registered sbr lower can get you charged because the only thing you can do with that short upper is make an illegal sbr with your rifle. A barrel by itself is more into the grey, as it takes more work to install. If you also have the means to install the barrel, it gets easier. You could be charged. Conviction may not happen, but you will still be hurt by the expense of the charge. With a whole upper, theyd almost certainly get the conviction.
That sten parts kit? As soon as you get it, cut the fixed firing pin off the bolt face, throw away the fa sear. Now, it cannot make a machinegun, as it would not fire.
That definition above is key. Is there no use for the parts but to make something illegal? Dual use does not count. If you can use the parts legally, it cannot be assumed you will use them illegally.
This all came about after a person with a contender pistol and stock/barrel set was charged with constructive possession. Up until that point, as long as their lawyer could out argue yours, you went to jail, as it was totally grey. In this case, they argued that the owner would put the stock on the pistol without the long barrel, making an illegal sbr. The judge decided that just because some parts could be used illegally, the fact that all the parts required to use them legally were present, and it could not be assumed that the parts would be used illegally.
Hope this clears it up some.

[tobnpr]

^^ Interesting, thank you for posting that case. I was not aware of it...
Found this, from the attorney that represented the Defendant in front of the SCOTUS:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

It is an interesting read- and I need to take the time to more than the quick skim-over I did. From my interpretation, the Court ruled that leniency must be applied- but it's not as though the parts need be assembled to constitute constructive possession (footnote 3, close proximity).

In any case, I'm with 44amp...nothing prevents ATF from arresting and charging you. We, the taxpayers, foot the bill for the prosecution. However, if you're the unlucky one that's arrested, better have tens of thousands of $$ for your defense. It just isn't worth the risk.

Upon getting our concealed carry permits, we were strongly advised to buy and read cover-to-cover a book (and a thick one, at that) by Jon Gutmacher on Florida laws. His advice is much the same- actions subject to interpretation - even though they may be legal -are best avoided, lest you end up on the receiving end of a technically unjust arrest, a life-changing experience and a huge legal bill.

Just ain't worth it.

[Gunfixr]

Well, for anything involving interpretation, you can just be arrested and charged, and the thought is that the judge can sort it out later.
However, not all atf agents are bad, most arent. So, if you have something with a clearly justifiable legal use, mostly, you will be ok. No, nothing is ever guaranteed, but most know a bs case when they see it. As for the jerks, well, theres not much to be done about them.
You can judge anything to the extreme, and end up getting nothing done. At the other end, you can say no one will ever know, and end up in jail. There is a comfortable medium, where you can get where you want to be, with minimal risk.
Personally, in the op scenario, id get the barrel later, or give it to someone who didnt have an ar, or had a pistol or sbr. Once i had a receiver, especially if it had a pistol buffer tube, not so much a concern.

[bungiex88]

Nothing is illegal unless you get caught

[Theohazard]

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulation...ing-2011-4.pdf

This ruling seems to indicate that the ATF only considers it constructive possession if the parts are in "close proximity" and they serve no other "useful purpose" than assembling an illegal NFA item.

Of course, there's a whole lot of grey area in that wording and that ruling doesn't have the force of law, which is why I agree that it's a good idea not to possess the parts until your stamp comes back.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by bungiex88

Nothing is illegal unless you get caught

Even if you meant this comment as a joke, it's trite and it's in poor taste.

Any support of illegal activity (joke or not) makes all of us look bad. It's also against the forum rules.

[Gunfixr]

"close proximity" is a relative thing, and interpreted. A basic scenario would be a pistol upper, meaning at least an upper receiver with a barrel installed on it, and a rifle.
Push some pins, and you have an illegal sbr in seconds.
However, just a barrel, by itself, and a rifle, is a stretch. Can they get a conviction? Maybe. Tools would be required to disassemble the rifle upper and put the short barrel on it. A short barrel and some more build parts would be better, as it shows you are in the "building process", acquiring parts.
This is where the interpretation comes in. How easy is it to make the illegal item? If you are charged, the judge has to make the same decision.

[Gunfixr]

Originally Posted by Gunfixr

"close proximity" is a relative thing, and interpreted. A basic scenario would be a pistol upper, meaning at least an upper receiver with a barrel installed on it, and a rifle.
Push some pins, and you have an illegal sbr in seconds.
However, just a barrel, by itself, and a rifle, is a stretch. Can they get a conviction? Maybe. Tools would be required to disassemble the rifle upper and put the short barrel on it. A short barrel and some more build parts would be better, as it shows you are in the "building process", acquiring parts.
This is where the interpretation comes in. How easy is it to make the illegal item? If you are charged, the judge has to make the same decision.

Remember, reasonable doubt also applies here.

[rickyrick]

I have a new unused stripped lower in my possession and a pistol buffer tube thingy on the way.... So I'm good now.

Thanks for the info... I hope it helps others diving into a pistol build.

[bungiex88]

Never said I supported illegal activity.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by bungiex88

Never said I supported illegal activity.

Let me clarify: Any appearance of supporting illegal activity makes all of us look bad. Your post added nothing to the conversation and could be construed as advocating illegal activity, whether or not that's actually what you meant.