Never clean a .22 rifle

[Picher]

Here's a flash for some of you! Today's stainless rimfire barrels are much softer than chrome-moly and last about 1/10th as long in benchrest competition. Some stainless barrels start to lose their edge in as little as 8,000 rounds.

The good news is that they break-in much quicker than chrome-moly barrels.

This comes from a top benchrest gunsmith.

Picher

[Gewehr98]

I only clean the chamber and muzzle crown, using a Q-Tip soaked with Ed's Red.

I've noticed, particularly in my Shilen-barreled FrankenRuger 10-22, that if I clean the bore, it takes time for groups to settle down afterwards, particularly with my favorite Eley, RWS, and Federal Gold Medal Match. It appears that the wax lube coating from those brands of premium target ammo needs to stay consistent in the bore.

Some BR-50 folks I talk to do the same thing.

YMMV, of course.

[30Cal]

The bore doesn't need to be cleaned. My smallbore coach in college kept cleaning rods under lock and key.

If you have a Ruger or something that needs to be clean to function, then that's another matter.

Ty

[surg_res]

I'm just surprised that nobody has brought up some old analogy that involves a man treating his rifle like he would treat his woman.... and, well I"ll just stop there...

[Brad Clodfelter]

This is definately a thread that always seems to never come to an end. Some guys say never run a brush through a rimfire barrel. The ole it will be death to your bore is what a lot of guys believe. I'm not here to change their minds, but rather to show proof that a barrel that has had many of brushes in all likihood through the bore, can still shoot one single hole groups at 25 and 50yds. That tells me that a brush and good hard rod, used correctly with a good bore guide will not harm a rimfire barrel at least not for a many of a year is what I believe. Those that think otherwise can keep on doing what they are doing. But all I ask is don't spread false allocations about cleaning a rimfire barrel when done correctly.

Brad

[JohnKSa]

I'm not here to change their minds, but rather to show proof that a barrel that has had many of brushes in all likihood through the bore, can still shoot one single hole groups at 25 and 50yds.

I don't have a problem believing that.

That tells me that a brush and good hard rod, used correctly with a good bore guide will not harm a rimfire barrel at least not for a many of a year is what I believe.

Not really. It tells you that "a brush and good hard rod, used correctly with a good bore guide will not harm a" Suhl barrel.

I wonder how well the information pertaining specifically to your barrel applies to the barrel on a typical $100-$200 .22 rifle.

But even if we accept that it's universally applicable, that only answers half the question. The other half is: "What's the benefit in scrubbing out your .22LR rifle bore after ever target or even every session?" 0.02" average group size decrease doesn't balance the books in my opinion.

[Brad Clodfelter]

John,

That is what he said he found. He also said he ruined 2 rimfire barrels in less than a year. If I ruined 2 barrels in a year, I would be figuring out what I was doing wrong. No one I know of is going through that many barrels by either shooting or cleaning them. Ask anyone who shoots competitive rimfire benchrest if they brush their barrels. My bet is that most who are winning are in fact using a brush every so often. And they aren't wearing out their barrels either. The fact is that most barrels will in fact shoot better from a clean barrel vs one that is dirty. A happy barrel is a clean barrel. Some other barrels may shoot more than just .020 better from a brushed barrel vs one that isn't. Yes and some barrels may shoot better dirty vs being cleaned. But having said that, from what I have seen I would say that it's safe to say that most barrels will shoot better being brushed. And those that don't, probably ain't much of a precision barrel to begin with. And eventually depending on the ammo you shoot, once the barrel leads up from those barrels that never had a brush ran through them, will in fact lose their accuracy until you brush the barrel. Now some may never lead up, but some will. And when it happens, the owner may think his barrel quit shooting and buy another gun when in fact all he would have to do is scrub the lead out with a good brush and solvent.

Now having said that, for hunting purposes only, you may never have to clean a barrel and still be plenty accurate to always be in a squirrels head. But I myself would rather shoot from a barrel that I know is clean. The only way I know that my rimfire barrel is clean is to brush the bore. I have yet to ruin any rimfire barrel by brushing the bore, or to affect the accuracy in a negative way.

Brad

[JohnKSa]

I'm not being dogmatic one way or the other, but I find it interesting that the real support for aggressive cleaning of a .22LR barrel seems to always come from the benchresters.

I'm certainly not saying that they're wrong, but having had a bit of contact with the centerfire benchrest crowd, I find that what they consider reasonable, what they consider to be a huge benefit, and what they consider critical are all very different from the considerations of the average shooter (or even the average competitive shooter who's not a benchrester).

Since you provided a summation, I'll do likewise.

1. Most, if not all rimfire barrels need to be cleaned aggressively to maintain the absolute best accuracy possible, but the accuracy improvement between normal treatment (infrequent cleaning and not using a brush) and this type of treatment is not likely to be noticed by the vast majority of shooters. This type of treatment if applied properly (bore guide, good rod, etc.) will probably not harm a high quality barrel but will almost certainly introduce additional wear to most barrels.

2. Some rimfire barrels lead enough that they need to be cleaned fairly frequently to maintain reasonable accuracy. Some apparently don't lead at all and will maintain excellent accuracy (sub MOA) with no bore cleaning at all**.

**I happen to have a rifle like that. I may put a rod through it one day, but I'm in no hurry as long as it's shooting that well.

[Brad Clodfelter]

John,

I see your point. And you are right. I can agree with what your saying. And by all means keep doing what your doing if your gun is shooting good.

Brad

[JohnKSa]

Actually this topic is quite interesting to me. There's a similar debate in the airgun world and the arguments and reasons on both sides are very similar.

I would LOVE to have:

Hardness testing results for a range of rimfire barrels. I've always heard that many rimfire barrels are pretty soft (as firearm barrels go) but I've NEVER seen a single number to back it up.

Hardness numbers for typical rimfire bore brushes AND some testing to see what (if any) effect the brushes have on steels with the hardness numbers from above. My informal research indicates that bronze can have a hardness range that overlaps the bottom edge of the steel hardness range, but there's way too much left to guesswork without some real data to work from.

Some more accuracy comparisons on cleaning vs not cleaning vs cleaning with a brush. These would almost HAVE to come from a benchrester since most of us probably aren't shooting well enough to notice the differences except in barrels with a pretty obvious tendency to lead/foul. Again, I've seen very little in the way of numbers here.

Unlike the caliber wars, THIS argument is one that could be put to rest with numbers that SHOULD be obtainable... If I had the time and money, I think that spending a couple of years finding the answers would be about the most fun someone could have!

[Brad Clodfelter]

John,

I have a friend in metallurgy. He has told me that you could take a bronze or brass brush and have several to do this test by the way. Mark and measure the piece of steel with a set of calipers on the mark before doing this. Now start scrubbing the marked area with brush after brush for 3 straight days if you like, and when you are done wearing out all those brushes, measure the same spot where the mark is, and you will get the same exact mesurement that you had before. He has told me that all a brush does to steel is polishes it. Now some will say you or scuffing the steel, but in reality all you are doing is polishing it. He ought to know. He's a very smart fella. He said no brass or bronze brush can in a metallurgical test remove steel from a rifle barrel. That's part of why I said a brush won't harm a rimfire barrel. This guy knows the facts about metals.

Brad

[JohnKSa]

I don't know exactly what to say to that. Some searching on the web reveals that "bronze" (I know that's a very general term) can be as hard as steel (another very general term). Clearly if you have a typical bronze alloy and a typical steel alloy both hardened to their typical values the steel is harder, but I don't know how someone could say that's always the situation.

Aluminum Bronze alloy, for example, has hardness numbers that run well above the figures for the softer steel alloys.

If he's saying he knows the properties of the specific bronzes used in brushes and the specific steels used in firearm barrels, that seems like a pretty bold statement given that there are no standards for either, as nearly as I can tell.

Or is there some other mechanism at work other than the relative hardnesses?

[Picher]

Some people still don't get it. It's not the bronze vs steel. It's the carbon and other grit, some of it hard as carborundum, dragged by brushes, patches, bore snakes, rods...whatever against the sharp edges of crowns and rifling that does the damage to a rimfire barrel.

Even if particle sizes are relatively small, the glass in some priming mix can eventually wear a barrel. If you don't shoot benchrest, you probably won't wear out a barrel by cleaning it for a very long time; longer than you'll probably own the rifle.

If you do shoot benchrest, you'll probably think your barrel is worn out before it really is and may replace several good barrels before you're done competitive shooting.

Picher

[johnbt]

While I agree to a point, doesn't the next bullet down the dirty barrel push and drag all that crud through the bore anyway?

Next week's topic: JB Bore Paste Just kidding.

John

[Gewehr98]

That a rimfire barrel will lead up at the sedate velocities available to a .22 Long Rifle. I've got many rimfires, from my vintage Remington 521T, to my FrankenRuger Shilen-barreled 10-22, to my Winchester 94-22, and have NEVER had rimfire ammo lead up the bore. I don't even run jacketed or plated rimfire ammo, just lead w/wax lube or whatever else the manufacturer uses. To date, I've experienced no leading, and I know leading all too well from my cast boolit practices with centerfire handguns and rifles.

I'm sure there are some god-awful rimfire bores out there that may indeed promote leading, but are they really that common? Hence my practice of not cleaning my target rimfires, save for the muzzle crown and also the chambers for my auto-shuckers.

[johnbt]

My '63 Mountie leaded up pretty good a few years ago. I think it took about 20 years to get that bad. Seriously. Once it got started the lead built up in a hurry. I just wrote it off to shooting a bunch of cheap soft lead on a blistering hot day.

John

[Lavid2002]

one day I shot a box of cci blazer and a brick of thunderbolts...My bore leaded up so bad i couldnt get the rod in an inch without it stopping...i should have stopped there but i didnt and ruined the barrel : (

[MacGille]

I have been a shooter for 60 years, a tool and die maker for 45 years, and a mechanic forever, and I have never seen or heard of any machine that works better dirty.(leave aside grease.) If you are too lazy to clean your rifle, thats your prerogative. But to say that one shouldn't clean a rifle is like saying that taking a bath is harmful to you.:barf:

I have never seen a rifle that has been harmed by cleaning, unless some ham handed boob stuck a steel rod in the muzzle. There is a reason that cleaning rods are made of aluminum and brass. Those metals are softer than steel and won't wear the barrel out. Yes, some care should be taken to protect the crown, and some target rifles may shoot better after a fouling shot. But to say one should never clean any machine is foolish.

IMHO the internet is responsible for the wide dissemination of urban legends and B---S---. Use your brain for more than an ear separator and ignore stupidity wherever you find it.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

MACGILLE

Thank you... a bit crude & harsh for my tastes, but its about time someone discredited the stupid title of this thread... I agree 100%... total bunk, & for the exact reasons you state...

yes if you are bumble handed you could screw up the crown etc... but for nearly anyone coordenated enough to shoot, clean your gun... appearently the pic of my Ruger & my comments went unnoticed...

[MacGille]

Apologies for harshness and crudity, but sometimes bluntness gets the point over more clearly.

[Brad Clodfelter]

You guys crack me up.

Go read some Precision Shooter articles written by probably the best 22 rimfire benchrest gunsmith in the U.S from Bill Calfee. Bill has forgotten more about how to make a rimfire shoot its best than what some of you even know. A ton of the guns he has built went on and broke world records. Bill has wrote some articles about the do's and don'ts of cleaning a rimfire barrel the right way. If you guys read some of them, you may just learn some things.

I presented some evidence to what a gun can still shoot like after having several brushes ran through the barrel. I showed you just a couple of groups at 25yds to illustrate my example that a brush won't harm the bore from a barrel that is 34yrs old. I got a ton more of one holers to go with those pictures. I probably could post them all, and you guys would still be hardheaded to the facts. Maybe you can show me some of your one holers from your guns that never get a brush or rod through them, and I may get your point.

Brad

[Brad Clodfelter]

Here's a 5 shot group from my new Benchmark barrel that I ruined by sticking a good hard quality rod with a good brush through a good bore guide. I should of known better for the gun more than likely would have shot better than this leaving it just plain dirty. I now plan on throwing this barrel away soon. For those that can't read the writing, that is 5 shots at 50yds.

[Hawg]

Yep, if it won't group any tighter than that you need to get rid of it.

[johnbt]

"If you guys read some of them, you may just learn some things."

Some of them? I've read all of them at least twice and sleep with them under my pillow. I'm not any smarter, but I am trying to understand the questions he's asking.

John

[JohnKSa]

You guys crack me up.

Go read some Precision Shooter articles written by probably the best 22 rimfire benchrest gunsmith in the U.S from Bill Calfee.

Come on Brad, don't pretend that this is cut and dried.

There are certainly experts who believe what you do, but there are also experts who come down on the other side of this debate.

Earlier on the thread a link to some information on a barrel maker's website was provided. Here's a bit of information from it:

"Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which are as hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel."

I'd have to say that this guys knows a bit about barrels and metallurgy and he's indicating that using a brass/bronze brush on CENTERFIRE stainless steel barrels may cause damage. I've no proof that rimfire barrels are softer than centerfires, but there's certainly no one even claiming that rimfires are HARDER than centerfire barrels.

You keep presenting your results as proof that brushes/agressive cleaning does no damage. It's proof that it's done no damage to YOUR barrels. YOUR barrels are not representative of the entire range of rimfire barrels in use today. I'm not saying your results are incorrect, just that your conclusions are not as general or as universally accepted as you are implying.

I have never seen or heard of any machine that works better dirty.(leave aside grease.)

Originally Posted by Brad Clodfelter

Yes and some barrels may shoot better dirty vs being cleaned.

Now you have.

If you are too lazy to clean your rifle, thats your prerogative.

So anyone who disagrees with your point of view has character flaws?

The fact is that even Mr. Clodfelter acknowledges that some bores may be more accurate when fouled. Other evidence has been presented indicating that cleaning can adversely affect a bore in at least some circumstances.

IMO, when a person feels the need to insult those who disagree it implies that they're running low on hard evidence to support their point of view. At any rate, It's certainly not adding any useful information to the discussion.