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Old July 14, 2017, 11:55 AM   #1
JoeSixpack
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Casting Birdshot to Buck/Slug

So Currently I do not cast or reload.
I have done some research on the subject and toyed with dipping my toe in the hobby.
A first step I considered taking cheap target birdshot loads, dumping the lead, melting it and molding it into buck shot or slugs.. lee actually makes a slug mold designed to fit in a shot cup.

It seems simple enough to me the lead is already there no need to scrounge for it.
And I would assume the lead would already be of good quality.
Shouldn't be any need to resize what comes out either.
And I don't really see why I'd need to adjust the powder load in the shell.

Just open it up, dump it, melt it, mold it, put it back in and crimp it shut right?

But someone told me in another thread that lead shot is usually poor and not suitable for this task.

Any thoughts on this? Does anyone do what im already suggesting?
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Old July 14, 2017, 01:14 PM   #2
T. O'Heir
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Kind of suspect that buying ammo just for its lead would be cost prohibitive. Lotta work too.
"...adjust the powder load..." Don't load shotgun either, but an ounce is an ounce. Suggest you take this to the reloading forum. Maybe better at www.shotgunworld.com though.
Anyway, LuckyGunner.com, for example, wants $60 per 250 of 1.125 ounce, Estate Cartridge ammo. 25 pound bag of shot is $40 at Cabela's. $18 for 25 1.125 oz. slugs at Midway. You'll get 355 1.125 oz slugs out of 25 pounds. 400 ounces in 25 lbs. 281 ounces in 250 rounds.
All slugs fit in a wad, same as a shot load.
The other thing is having a well ventilated room to cast lead and the cost of setting up to cast. About $60 for a 10lb. furnace. That Lee mold runs $25 and does 1 at a time.
"...told me in another thread..." It's pure lead. It can't be good or bad. Poor lead is stuff like wheel weights that are alloys with contaminates.
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Old July 14, 2017, 03:12 PM   #3
JoeSixpack
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Can often get 100packs of 12ga birdshot for around $20.
Academy last month had free shipping and estate for 19.99
walmart pretty much always has Winchester value packs for like 21.99 I think.

I would not be to concerned with cost of molds or pot since I wouldn't mind getting into casting other stuff down the road, I'd like to get into reloading but thought this was a practical way to start with minimal investment and good return.

slugs and buck ammo can easily cost .50cents or more per shell vs say .20 cents for bridshot loads, granted the birdshot loads would likely end up in reduced power buck/slug but that would not be a bad thing in my book.

From what I've watched and read the best place to cast is outside with good weather possibly with a gazebo style tent to avoid debris from falling into your pot.

I've never tore one apart but I was under the impression that most slugs like the ever popular foster did not use a shot cup, but rather thats why it has rifling not for spin control but to reduce friction in the barrel.
Am I wrong?

LEE sell's key drive slug molds that are designed to fit inside a shot cup, so basically you can just pop this in without doing anything to the shell except dumping the shot that was in it.

also generally see foster slugs use a roll crimp where the LEE slugs are designed to be closed with a star crimped like shot.

It might be cheaper to load from scratch but if you don't have a good source of lead it seems like reusing the bird shot would be the next best thing givin the cost between target birdshot loads and buck or slugs.


Ya I figure lead is lead also, If it's already being used for shot you would expect it to be of good composition already for casting, but im no expert.

Specifically:
Quote:
Originally Posted by armoredman View Post
I seem to remember that shot isn't a good choice for casting, something to do with the arsenic levels...can't remember off the top of my head.
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Old July 14, 2017, 03:57 PM   #4
FITASC
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Quote:
It's pure lead. It can't be good or bad
It SHOULD have at least 3% antimony

Quote:
walmart pretty much always has Winchester value packs for like 21.99 I think.
With tax makes them over $6/box - folks can do better online

Cheapest shot to melt would be reclaimed, but then you'd need hulls, primers, wads, and powder
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Old July 14, 2017, 04:32 PM   #5
reddog81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSixpack View Post

And I don't really see why I'd need to adjust the powder load in the shell.
I don't know anything about shotgun reloading but assuming you can just use the same powder charge from target birdshot loads in a buckshot load is probably a terrible assumption.

I'm sure the lead from shot could be used to make slugs, but it would probably be very inefficient from a money and labor prospective. A pound (16 ounces) of lead should cost $1 to $2. Buying loaded shells is going to get expensive real quick.

I'd guess that you can get away without sizing shotgun slug, as you can do so with handgun rounds and still achieve reasonable accuracy.
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Old July 14, 2017, 07:34 PM   #6
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I know a guy in Korea that does exactly this.....he lives out in the country and he's a boar hunter, they use dogs and shotguns. Guns are tightly controlled but he can have two 12 ga shotguns, they have to stay at the local police station and he can only have one out at a time. He has a really hard time getting 12 ga slugs and when he can they cost out the butt.......but shot shells are more readily available. So last time he visited we looked on Youtube and there's a bunch of videos on there for doing exactly this......just do a search, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...a+shot+to+slug


We ended up ordering him a Lee slug mold and a roll crimper from Midway, these two:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/73...imper-12-gauge

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/77...-12-gauge-1-oz

Now he makes his own.........this was back in 2009 and he's been doing it since then with no problems.
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Old July 16, 2017, 04:21 AM   #7
briandg
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Sounds like a bad idea, since either of those rounds are relatively inexpensive. Would you be saving enough to make it worth the effort?

If you just want to do it, go ahead, but there are a lot of considerations that you may not have come up with that may be significant.

I'm not interested.
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Old July 16, 2017, 09:15 AM   #8
JoeSixpack
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@Spur0701
Thanks I'll check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg View Post
Sounds like a bad idea, since either of those rounds are relatively inexpensive. Would you be saving enough to make it worth the effort?

If you just want to do it, go ahead, but there are a lot of considerations that you may not have come up with that may be significant.

I'm not interested.
Well target birdshot loads run around 18-20 cpr.
00 buck seems to run around twice that about 40 cpr
04 buck is even higher around 50 cpr
slugs run around 55-60 cpr

so basically im looking at reducing cost by 1/2 -> 1/3rd

seems worth while to me.
What other considerations am I missing?
I mean to my way of thinking does the shell really care if 1oz of shot is suddenly a 1oz slug? or If the bird shot is now larger buck shot?
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Old July 16, 2017, 09:57 AM   #9
briandg
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Yes, it matters. Buck shot is looser than packed 00. Shotgun rounds are notoriously temperamental. They use different wads, both slug's and buckshot use higher brass, different base wads, different powder and charge weights, they offer different levels of resistance to the powder gasses, and for that matter, a charge of buckshot is full of air while bird as crammed into a solid chunk. You probably can't even do it because the charge won't fit.

Buy a round of buckshot, try it out, report back so I can know.

Slug's are fired through roll crimps for a reason. Reloading data specifications are very particular about what components you use, as just a minor change in a low pressure round will destroy the efficiency of the burn. Decades ago, brenekke experimented with lubing the solid attached wads, and it failed. Just adding wax sent pressures oscillating, and it was scrapped.
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Old July 16, 2017, 10:05 AM   #10
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1 ounce of birdshot will take up more space than a 1 ounce slug. However if they are both in a shot cup it might not matter. I don't know, but from a quick look at Alliant loading data it would appear that slugs use more powder than shot loads. I have no idea what other considerations would need to be taken.

How much slug shooting do you do? If you save $.30 per round it is going to take over 200 rounds to payback your purchase of the mold and a cheap melting pot.

In my opinion if something is worth doing, it is worth doing it right. Just because you can make something work doesn't mean it is a good idea. I'm guessing shooting slugs out of shot cups is going to result in bad accuracy. Are you really going to spend and hour casting and tinkering with these loads to get worse accuracy than you can get for spending $20 on shells.
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Old July 16, 2017, 10:36 AM   #11
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Joe, I went downstairs and tore open a number of shells. Remington 00 and Winchester field target loads. Every component was wildly different, even down to the shape of the base wad and powder chamber.

Your thoughts are to buy cheap shotshells, open them up to recycle the lead, cast several thousand buckshot balls, then load the new shot into the emptied rounds, crimp and shoot? Have you actually tried pulling down shotgun shells? It's not easy, it destroys them.

you can't do it.

You can't even fit a charge of buckshot into a field load shell. Without Grex, you can't crimp it. If you leave out a couple pieces of shot so it can fit, those shells won't fire properly, maybe not at all. Imo, the fact that just ten rounds of buckshot would require casting 100 balls is a deal smasher all by itself.

I just saved you from a whole lot of trouble, but by all means, if you are determined to give it a try, I'm not going to come to your door and stop you.
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Old July 16, 2017, 10:43 AM   #12
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Btw, I can't even touch the question about your hand cast slugs. I'm sure that Lee will tell you that unless your question is addressed in their loading data, you will have to figure it out on your own. If you find someone here or there who offers you loading data and instructions, you should probably take it with a dose of skepticism.
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Old July 16, 2017, 11:43 AM   #13
FITASC
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Quote:
Have you actually tried pulling down shotgun shells? It's not easy, it destroys them.
IF the center of the crimp has not been heat sealed, using a drywall screw to open the crimp can be done. Without a shotgun reloader, though, recrimping will be somewhat impossible.

Quote:
If you leave out a couple pieces of shot so it can fit, those shells won't fire properly, maybe not at all.
Why would they not fire at all? Of course they if all he did was restack the shot. If the total payload is a little lighter, not a problem to worry about.

Although, I agree completely that it is a total waste of time and effort from a cost savings perspective. If you're the type that just likes to tear things apart to see how they work, have at it. It would be a lot cheaper to go to AmmoSeek.com and order online and in bulk.
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Old July 16, 2017, 01:20 PM   #14
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Fitasc, I know that you are involved with shotguns. I respectfully disagree. I've never been able to pull down commercial loads, and had to rip these apart with needle nosed vise grips.

You are aware that shotgun loads run at very low pressures and that there is a very delicate balance between powder weight, powder speed, charge weight, wad obturation, pressure provided by the crimp, the details go on forever. If these things fail, the balance is screwed up and the charge burps instead of booms.

I personally took down a few rounds and to safely fit 00into the space provided by an ounce of shot, two or hree would have to come out. That's a third of the total weight. Again, without filler, that shell can't be crimped properly.No, you can't fire a round through a shotgun under those working conditions, the weight and back pressure of the payload won't provide the heat and pressure needed to burn that powder effectively. It could be called a squib.

This is just like thousands of other ideas. Sure, you can get that thing out of the driveway but you'll be pushing it home.
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Old July 19, 2017, 08:01 AM   #15
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No harm in trying ti save money but I think this venture would be futile. Go find your local skeet/trap club, ask em for empty hulls, they'll give you so many you'll hate yourself for asking. Wads are cheap, if you need em, source some lead, a good powder and go. I think ypur rsults that way would be superior.
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