Is 9mm enough for Mountain Lion?

[Mosin44az]

Still backpacking, but the years are wearing and I’m thinking of trying to save some weight by switching to a small 9mm like my P365, instead of the bulkier and heavier .40s and .45s I’ve carried before.

So questions I would appreciate the knowledgeable here providing info on:

1. Is 9mm an adequate caliber to stop an attacking mountain lion?

2. If so, what minimum load would work for this purpose?

Thanks for all relevant info.

[DMacLeod]

A guide in Alaska killed a charging Grizzly with a 9mm a few years ago so I would say a 9mm can kill a mountain lion.

[boat2]

caliber depends on how good of a shot you are in an attack situation and how long you are willing to let it suffer.

for some shooters a 22lr will do it, and some need a 40mm grenade.

in the end it's just a mountain lion, not a scary polar bear.

[Shadow9mm]

Given the correct bullet choice i would say yes. Id look at the underwood with lehigh extreme penetrators, or buffalo bore.

[jar]

There are lots of light 45s available now.

[Double Naught Spy]

Of course 9mm is enough to stop a mountain lion. Mountain lions are not supernatural animals. The only real question is whether or not you are good enough with whatever 9mm pistol you choose using whatever ammo you choose, to be able to shoot one.

Yeah, a guy fended off one a few years ago with a 9mm. Don't be this idiot (video in link)
https://www.outkick.com/mountain-lio...g-viral-video/

I don't know if he actually hit the animal or not. They lion did seem about to do him harm, but also the lion wasn't moving very fast and this moron picked getting video to be more important than getting a proper sight picture. So basically, his gun was a noise maker, but he did fend off a mountain lion with it, but not because he physically stopped it, but because he psychologically stopped it.

So you may be good enough to shoot a stationary lion, or maybe even a walking lion, but how good are you at hitting one that was truly trying to get to you that is moving 30 or 40 or 50 mph? Once they start running, it is a completely different game.

Will a 9mm work. Sure. Bella Twin killed a record grizzly with a .22 long. Mind you, it was NOT attacking her and he basically sniped it from concealment and very short range, but she killed a threatening bear. So by this logic, a 9mm short work great, if you can hit what you need to hit. Given animal behavior and adrenaline, you are going to want an upper CNS shot that kills the animal with the first hit. 9mm aren't going to get you a lot of hydrostatic shock to indirectly shut down the nerve center of the brain from a body chest or abdomen shot like a larger caliber hunting rifle, so you are going to want your bullet to make direct contact with CNS structures. Good luck!

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by boat2

caliber depends on how good of a shot you are in an attack situation and how long you are willing to let it suffer.

I'm all in favor of ethical hunting, but if an animal attacks me I am not interested in how much the animal might suffer, I'm concerned with how much I might suffer.

[FrankenMauser]

Mountain Lions are soft and squishy. They don't need the latest .565 UltraCannon revolver cartridge to be taken down.
9mm is fine with a decent expanding bullet. I sometimes carry "less" without worry.

But, as with any other predator, you have to do your part and put the bullets into vitals.
Break it down or shut it down.
You're better off with a 'questionable' gun that you shoot very well and often, than a "bear gun" that you shoot poorly (and/or rarely).

About 10 years ago, some elk hunters were attacked by a grizzly here.
Over 20 rounds of 10mm Auto were fired, but one hunter still died and the other was badly mauled. Because they only hit the bear twice, and neither was more than a flesh wound.
About 6-7 years ago, an elk hunter and guide in the region were attacked while field dressing an elk carcass that sat overnight. When a mother and sow grizzly charged, the hunter ran to the guide's 10mm Glock but "could not operate it." So, he threw the Glock at the guide being mauled, and ran away. Blood evidence showed that the guide eventually, somehow survived long enough to walk about 50 yards away from the site, but died alone without ever firing the Glock.

I guarantee that a bunch of well-placed 9mm bullets would have been more effective than 10mm spray-and-pray or throw-the-gun-and-run-away.
And that's Grizz, not softer, squishier Cougar.

[Electrod47]

A 9MM would kill a typical mountain lion. Watching a recent encounter of a mountain bicyclist with a go-pro on his helmet you got to figure that's one smallish target coming right at you down low. I know we can't carry every possible firearm for the scenario that presents itself. But, if I was worried about an attacking mountain lion, practice kicking a 5 gallon bucket away from you and drawing your weapon and do a mag dump on it and see how many holes are in it. I did a lengthy post awhile back of my encounter with very Large mountain lion in the Hualapai Mts above Kingman AZ 35 years ago. At 10 paces I was armed with a 300 WinMag and it did me little good.

[Mosin44az]

I appreciate the replies, keep ‘em coming…

[CDW4ME]

Lets use manufacturer data to compare:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound...omparison.aspx
Heavy clothing:
9mm 147 Gold Dot 14.9'' / .57
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot 13.2'' / .70
9mm 147 HST 12.5'' / .69
40 S&W 180 HST 12.5 / .80

https://winchesterle.com/-/media/Pro...ocol_2016.ashx
Heavy Clothing.
Winchester 9mm 147 bonded 14'' / .58
Winchester 40 S&W 180 bonded 13.9'' / .68

If we are concerned with penetration but go with a HP in case of human attackers then 9mm 147 gr. is not at a penetration disadvantage.

[Mosin44az]

Like most people, I am a better and faster shot with 9mm than with a .40 or .45, so that’s a factor.

By my measurements, I can save over a pound easily by packing a small 9mm instead of even a compact .40 (Smith M & P Compact, the first version more like the Shield in size). While one pound plus doesn’t matter much for dayhiking, it’s beginning to matter increasingly for backpacking as I get older (67 now).

I have never shot the “hunting’ loads like Buffalo Bore or Lehigh, etc., but am thinking a heavier 9mm ( 147 gr) would be better for this purpose. CDW, thanks for those stats. Again, I understand I need to shoot it fast AND accurately.

No expert obviously but from what I’ve read mountain lions are often sneak attack ambush predators so you might not know it’s there until it’s already on you! It’s possible a lightweight revolver may be preferable in such circumstance.

Mountain lions are predators, and the predator calculus they go through evaluates risk versus reward I bet. They are smarter than we give them credit for. Even a missed gunshot is often enough to stop a predator’s attack for that reason, like in that video (thanks for including). It’s not what they were counting on….

I also know it’s exceedingly rare for attacks to occur, but as Jeff Cooper once said, “Statistics are cold comfort when you find out YOU are the exception.” I have never seen a cougar out in the wild, but HAVE seen fresh prints when out hiking by myself, a slightly eerie feeling. ( Hiking in groups is also clearly a deterrent to them.)

[Mosin44az]

Electrod47, if the .300 WinMag did no good, what happened!!?

I’m in Phoenix myself, have four wheeled in the Hualapais. Wild country.

[stinkeypete]

I've managed to live 60 some years hiking the woods and never been bothered by black bears or lions.

I've seen two grizzly bear in the wild and the solution, spotting them several miles away across a mountain valley, was to high tail it out of there. Grizzly and polar bears are apex predators. I would not feel adequately armed with just one center-fire rifle. I'd prefer my party had three.

Despite bravely running away from those big bears, I feel privileged to have seen them. I'd feel the same about a cougar.

There is a comical youtube video showing someone's encounter with a cougar and his defense with a handgun. The big cat was playing, bluffing charges. But you don't mess around with a big cat to see if it's bluffing.

While backpedaling, the man put a round into the dirt, raising a cloud of dust. He quickly shot a few of the weeds around the cat with several shots. This was not a man giving warning shots; this was a guy freaking out thinking he was going to be mauled.

The cat didn't seem particularly impressed with the noise but loped off anyhow, looking bored.

If that cat wanted the guy, he would have had him. It doesn't matter how big your bullet is if it doesn't hit the target, and the target is obscured in the fog of panic. Anyone that says "Yes, that man was a fool, the trick is to simply not panic" is missing some marbles.

My advice is:
1. Learn your habitat and the habits of the animals around you so you can be respectful and smart about them
2. Bear spray is sort of like a flame thrower, it makes animals go away and it doesn't require high precision to apply
3. If you still feel you must carry a handgun it should be light, handy and accurate. Since I think you won't see any lions to shoot, I think you can at least amuse yourself by shooting some pine cones, tin cans and empty shotgun hulls you find of a log before packing them out.
4. If you live in grizzly/polar bear country, you know what to do anyhow.

I like my little 3" barrel LCRX 38 Special. It weights one pound, unloaded. Its for feral dogs, sick/wounded animals found afield, but in reality it's shot many a pine cone. I just drop it in the pocket of my jacket.

When I feel like a cowboy, I take a Ruger Single Six .32 H&R magnum loaded with wadcutters, in a western style holster. Even loaded light, it's no joke. It's accurate as a laser beam and among my crowd far more status than the latest biggest iPhone.

Let's just come out and say it- it's fun to carry a pistol in the woods. It doesn't matter which one you have, they are all good enough.

[Mosin44az]

Stinkeypete, thanks for your experience and info.

I actually carry Bear Spray (which is very light), but am curious if you know of any usage on mountain lions. Would it stop one charging?

I know spray has stopped charging bears, there are a number of studies and some remarkable customer testimonials on the UDAP website. But not sure if the mountain lion’s eyes and nasal passages are as sensitive as a bear’s.

Someone else linked that video you mention, above. It didn’t look like the cougar was bluffing. It started to attack and then changed its mind. The great YouTube video of the Utah mother cougar chasing the iphone hiker down the road shows a number of bluff attacks.

[Electrod47]

Originally Posted by Mosin44az

Electrod47, if the .300 WinMag did no good, what happened!!?

I’m in Phoenix myself, have four wheeled in the Hualapais. Wild country.

I talked about it on a post asking about Ruger M77's heres what I wrote:

Its mentioned above about the Trigger Stop on the Ruger M-77, how it works out or in. Let me shate my story on that one.
1983, being the Ruger fan I buy a used a M-77 in 300 Win Mag very low mileage gun. I want it for Mule Deer High up in the Hualapai Mountains I lived in outside Kingman Arizona. Shots are at least 300 yards usually across a Canyon if your lucky. Plus there were Elk on occasion ( though I never managed a tag).
It was a early season hunt, still warm out, even at 8,000 ft. I'm on the side of one canyon watching the other side while slowly moving along this game trail with a 60ft drop off, coming to a sharp turn around a large boulder with the said 60ft drop and a 3ft ledge I'm on, I come face to face at less than 10 paces with a Mountain Lion as big as "anything in Africa" standing broad side staring right at me his tail flicking faster and faster. I'm not gonna turn my back on this dude. Ruger 300 Win Mag was already being carried in my hands so from the Hip I flip the safety, point and shoot. Nothing!! I think Jeez. I thought I had a round in the chamber. I frantically work the action and hear a round hit the rocks as I slam home the bolt and pull the trigger again from the hip. Nothing! I think, did I work it so fast the bolt didn't pick up a round. I do it again, Nothing again, Nothing. I got 4 rounds on the ground and am now empty. I am at the verge of an adrenaline heart attack, and actually contemplating which would be worse HIM or taking my chance over the side. Just at that moment he went over the side!! Bounding down that (to me) a sheer cliff. I tried to reload and fire the gun as a signal for my other party members. no go. So I went down the mountain essentially unarmed waiting for my friend to reappear. Needless to say from then to this day in my 75th year I always have a Ruger 44 Magnum on my hip when I'm off the beaten path. I figured out what was wrong with the gun on my own, and just applied some loctite. My son has it still today.

[wild cat mccane]

bear spray.

If it's your real concern, bear spray is the answer. Otherwise, all the handgun rounds in FMJ can go within each other for penetration thanks to drag.

[jetinteriorguy]

I’ve only ever encountered one cougar in my life, and it was chained up in the front yard of one of my customers. I had gone to their house to collect payment on a bill, and lo and behold there was a cougar tied up in their front yard. Their son was a big game guide in Wyoming and brought it home and raised it as a big pet. They told me it was friendly so when I was leaving I was going to check it out. You could see the limits of its movement due to the wear point in the lawn. As I approached it when I was about ten feet away it laid down and its ears went back, which kind of told me it really wasn’t friendly. So I approached further very apprehensively. When I was about two feet away from the edge of its limit it charged and leaped at me. Man, I tumbled backwards so quick and had to check my underwear to make sure it was clean. The point of this is, these things are very fast and attacking from an ambush you’d have to be pretty fast on the draw and extremely accurate with whatever gun/caliber you choose to walk away from an encounter like this.

[Ruger45LC]

It's better than nothing, that's for sure. I'd have no issues with it even though I do prefer .40 or .45, a 9mm shouldn't have much problem so long as you put the bullet where it needs to go.

[L. Boscoe]

Mountain lions, in my experience 75 years ago in Texas, are not interested in humans as prey, and given an escape route, will leave you alone. I would be much more concerned with rattlesnakes.

[Mosin44az]

Great story Electrod47.

Thanks again for all replies. Sounds like 9mm is considered sufficient if I want to go small, and always carry Bear Spray…..

[jmr40]

A typical mountain lion is 100-175 lbs. Some get a bit over 200 lbs and the biggest ever recorded was 276 lbs.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=averag...97d8aeddc03752

9mm pistols are the most used handgun in the world and are carried by most USA cops to stop human threats that are on average larger.

And even in wilderness settings you're more likely to need your gun for 2 legged predators. Lion and bear attacks are very rare, but not unheard of. It never hurts to be prepared.

I don't live, nor do I commonly hike in lion country, but if I did, I'd carry the same handgun I'd carry into town.

[Mosin44az]

Although the same weight or a little lighter, I think of Mountain Lions and other wild animals as being much tougher than the same size human.

I actually suspect that mountain lions look at adult human males and decide we might not be good prey, because we are upright and they assume we have similar strength and defenses (teeth, claws) that they do.

They don’t know how pathetically weak we are, even though, unlike bears, they haven’t figured out that we might have guns.

When humans LOOK like the prey lions are used to—joggers and bicyclists LOOK like prey animals running from them—that triggers their attacks. Hikers alone are more vulnerable as well.

I remember a friend telling a hunting story about going up a valley in Arizona looking for animal sign. Unbeknownst to him, a cougar was tracking him from halfway up the canyon! His hunting buddy spotted it and was keeping an eye on it from above. When my friend bent over to look at something on the ground, the lion tensed as if to start an attack, my friend thinks because at that point he looked like prey. His buddy was about to shout a warning, but instead tripped on a rock. The cougar heard him, looked up startled ( “There are TWO of them!”) and took off.

I talked to the head of Big Game hunting for Arizona Game and Fish and she said wherever there are deer in the State, there are mountain lions. They are all over.

[FrankenMauser]

I've run across Mountain Lion a few times. Generally, as mentioned above, they were far more interested in staying (poorly ) hidden or keeping their distance, than they were in stalking or getting closer.

A large female stalked my brother and I up a trail in Utah about 15 years ago.
We had no idea until we turned around on a pinnacle, saw her break off and trot across the valley to theretofore unseen cubs, and we came across her tracks on the way back down.
Was it a serious stalk? No idea. But she definitely broke off her intended path to follow closely, and then aborted when we stopped and turned around.

We were quite happy to just observe and investigate. Being armed with elk-worthy rifles didn't hurt, but I don't think either of us considered having to use them. We went back down the same path to avoid disturbing the cubs, but didn't feel that we needed to for our safety.

[bac1023]

Yes, with the right ammo, 9mm will make a mess out of a mountain lion. Obviously as with any service caliber, shot placement is key.