Grizzly rifles, confusing issue

[treg]

I recall the writing of one grizzly guide who stated he'd rather see a client show up with an old worn .30-06 than with any brand new magnum rifle.

[samsmix]

jgcoastie,

Wow, I didn't realize last night how firmly stated my point on pyrodex was. I had my facts right, but upon rereading my post, I feel I was rude about it. My appologies to you.

[1hogfan83]

I may have missed it but no props for any of the weatherby mags? I would bring a .460 wthby if I knew I would be charged, actually I would bring a ma deuce. I think a .300wthby would be a great choice, you can get them in a light gun, even in a cheaper vanguard and compared to the bigger rounds they are cheaper. I dont know that I would want to shoot it in a light gun, I have but I dont know if I would want to agian. But as it goes, you dont feel a thing when the game is in your crosshairs.

[Big Pard]

Its better to have a client that can place a premium 270 bullet than to have one who is so scared of his/her "tank killer" that they flinch so bad that they miss or worse wound a bear. In my opinion anyway.

[jmr40]

I found this link http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

It is a study done by the Alaska Game dept on stopping power for large bears. Their conclusions in summary is that for pure stopping power the 458, 375 and 338 magnums were the top choices, but that a 30-06 loaded with 220 gr bullets was right there with the heavy magnums and was a very viable choice for most hunters or anyone else wanting to stop a grizzly charge primrily because of the reduced recoil.

Also note that there are several listings for each cartridge depending on the load. For example you will see the 338 magnum in several places near the top and again down near the middle of the group.

The 12 ga slug and 45-70 were well down near the bottom of the list.

[Rifleman1776]

jmr40, some really interesting results on that report.
The 7mm mag. is a big surprise for me.
And, the venerable 30-06 comes through again as the #1 all-around North American big game rifle. One gun, who needs more?

[jgcoastie]

Alaska Department of Fish & Game can come to whatever conclusion they wish...

I'll come to my own conclusion... And I recommend you all do the same...

ADF&G also released a report that recommended people carry only bear spray for bear protection, saying that people were safer with it than guns due to the inherent danger of firearms. If I can find that report, I'll post a link. Last time I saw it, it was posted in a sporting goods store in AK right next to a display of bear spray cans...

Originally Posted by Rifleman1776

One gun, who needs more?

People who want more than one gun... One gun is boring... Multiple guns, now that's happiness...

[jgcoastie]

Originally Posted by jmr40

I found this link http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

It is a study done by the Alaska Game dept on stopping power for large bears.

Wrong. It was a study conducted by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Pacific Northwest Region. That's not the same as the ADF&G. The Dept of Ag letterhead was my first clue in figuring that out...

The 12 ga slug and 45-70 were well down near the bottom of the list.

That doesn't surprise me, because the test was conducted in March of 1983...

The bullet and powder technology available at the time doesn't even compare to today's technology... The heavy-hitting lever action loads didn't become prevalent until the last 10 years or so...

Originally Posted by U.S. Dept of Agriculture Study posted by jmr40

Large-Caliber Standard Rifle
Cartridges
.45-70 U.S. - We tested the .45-70 in
two bullet weights (300- and 405-gr)
and in rifles with two barrel lengths (20
and 22 inches). Both rifles were Marlin
1895 lever-action. In both, the 300-gr
bullet ranked much higher than the
405-gr bullet, primarily because of the
poor expansion of the 405-gr bullets. At
the 1200-1300 ft/s striking velocity,
some of these bullets acted as solids
and penetrated as much as 24 inches.
This was the greatest penetration
recorded in the tests. The 300-gr
bullets, with 300 to 400 ft/s more velocity, did not penetrate deeply but held
together and expanded well and uniformly. Low velocities resulted in low
striking energy. Shortening the barrel
by 2 inches had no effect on the performance of the bullet; in fact, the rifle
with the 20-inch barrel performed
better with the 300-gr bullet than did
the longer barreled rifle. Recoil in thisrifle, which weighed less than 8 lb, was
much less severe than in the largecaliber magnums; it is thus not a
detracting factor. The poor action of
the 405gr bullets may limit their use
for protection from bears. The 300-gr
bullets in the commercial ammunition
we used are designed for animals the
size of deer and may expand too rapidly and lack sufficient penetration for
use against bears. In our test they did
not fragment too badly. The lack of a
proper bullet is unfortunate. The .45-70
can be obtained in a compact, moderate
weight, lever-action rifle that may be
easier and faster to operate, particularly for left-handed people.
Perhaps the current reinterest in .45-70
rifles will cause the manufacturers to
produce a more suitable bullet. We do
not consider factory-loaded .45-70
ammunition particularly suitable for a
rifle for protection from bears, especially with the 405-gr bullet.

Just as I suspected, the major detracting factor for the .45/70 was the lack of a suitable bullet.... And it's worth noting that the 300gr bullet penetrated 24 inches, deeper than all the others tested in the study. And manufacturers are doing exactly as the study hoped, they're putting out premium bullets for the .45/70... Something no one was doing in 1983..

The velocities the study cited were in the 1200-1300fps range. Modern factory loadings for the 405gr heavy-hitters are in the 1800-2000fps range...

If you're going to post old information, at least be sure it's still applicable in today's world...

[Alaska444]

Yes, that information while useful is nearly 30 years old and out of date compared to modern 45-70 ammo. Since many government related organizations recommend Garretts Hammerhead 540 gr in 45-70 for all of their employees, I would venture to say it is actually obsolete information. Happens quickly any more.

[Ridgerunner665]

I have fired a few hundred hot 45-70 loads...my reloads, 405 grain Beartooth bullets at 1,900 fps (50 grains of H332 in Rem brass)...a few loads even hotter (52 grains)

Lots of power...on both ends.


Those things kick like a mad mule in a Marlin...I'm no wimp when it comes to recoil, but about 20 of those will literally give me a headache.

Would they stop a mad grizzly? Yes, I believe they would...especially if you let him shoot it.

If I were hunting a grizzly, I'd rather have a 30-06 loaded with a stout 200 grain bullet.