So what are people thinking about the "Reformation"

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by Theohazard

They haven’t. At least not on the federal level. The only changes have been new state-level legislation.

If I remember correctly, after Vegas, politicians pressured the ATF to reclassify bump stocks as machine guns. The ATF replied that they couldn’t do that since bump stocks didn’t meet the definition of “machine gun” under federal law. I suspect that the ATF got even more political pressure after that, because apparently they’re revisiting the issue. But nothing has come of it yet.

You are correct, however, they are now illegal in Denver by a recent vote and does it really matter to the gun owner whether it's a federal or a state law that forbids him/her owning something? The result is the same and in truth, the state often can react quicker with knee jerk reactions to pass stupid laws than the feds can.

[johnwilliamson062]

Grunt makes the best point yet.
It would be difficult to convince me this would be better than a bullpup. With destabilized bullets at 50, a spongy linkage in a bullpup is still way better.

Combine the two... and you won't hear a thing.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by COSteve

does it really matter to the gun owner whether it's a federal or a state law that forbids him/her owning something?

Yes, I think it matters a whole lot. If something is only illegal on the state level, all I have to do is avoid living in that state. I’ve done that several times as my wife and I have moved around following jobs.

But if something is illegal on the federal level, it would mean I’d have to leave the country to avoid it. And what other country has better gun laws than the US? Not many...

[kozak6]

In rifle calibers, it seems like anything other than Lancaster rifling is going to be a wash, and probably even then.

The Nerf football bullet in particular seems unworkable and expensive.

Pistol calibers, though, hold a lot of promise (although it's outrageously hard to beat an armbrace).

In particular, I'm wondering if it would be practical to induce a backspin on a roundball. Seems like there's a few ways you could go about it. I wonder how much trouble the lift generated would cause, or if it would even be an issue with a supersonic projectile.

Roundballs are difficult, though. They tend to weigh something like half a conventional pistol bullet of the same caliber. Some kind of tungsten or bismuth alloy might help a little.

I wonder if a duplex (or triplex!) roundball load could work, although that sounds a little crazy. Buffering would be an issue. Wish I had a machine shop. And knew how to machine.

[1940izhevsk]

I personally think it's going to flop. Only accurate with their specialized "nerf" ammo out at 100 yards, and keyholes at 50 with standard ball. For 2 grand, it's honestly less expensive to build and suppress an SBR. It's a good meme gun and a middle finger to the NFA, but I don't see it being much of a success.

Of course, I could very well be wrong and it sells like hotcakes, however only time will tell.

[marine6680]

I think their main goal will be to sell the barrels. Just build your own. I think the complete package is just proof of concept more than anything.


An AR that expensive with its limitations, is not really tenable... But having a full rifle available for the few who don't want to bother with building, will get them a few sales.


People say... "Just SBR"... That is a lengthy and tedious process... And there are more inconveniences than just getting one... You have to get permission to take an SBR across state lines for example.

"just use a brace"... They are not the same as a real stock. Nowhere near as nice to shoot with. Not as comfortable, less useful, some slip around.


What does a civilian need an SBR for? From a practical sense... Not the, "because I can" thing. Dumb law may be dumb, but it exists and is a limitation for now.

So what good is an SBR for the average person?

Mostly HD... indoors CQB type situations... Outdoors, a 16in barreled rifle is good enough... No need for a SBR there.

The average person isn't worried about needing a short rifle for indoors, that can also serve them in a firefight at 300+ yards. We are not on patrols... Searching/clearing buildings, then wandering through more open outdoor terrain a few minutes later.


Do you need an HD rifle to be MOA accurate at 100yds or more? Sure I would like it, but I don't need it.

If I can make reliable COM hits at 25yds, I am fine. A one or two inch group at that distance is plenty good enough.


If you are the prepper, end of the world type... ok whatever...

The rest of us would like an SBR for one useful purpose... Beyond that is just for fun.

Building one using one of those PDW type stocks, could make for a convenient short package for a trunk gun. If thats your thing... Sure its not going to be very accurate past 100yds, and the bullets are tumbling past 50yds... But If you envision yourself engaging in firefights with people farther than 100yds, in an emergency get home situation... You have no idea how to really survive one.


Edit to add...

I have seen a new arm brace desing that was just announced, that works in a very stock like manner... That changes the dynamic completely, and I would go with one of those as a "pistol" configuration over using one of these barrels.

[mellow_c]

This is just too easy...

Everything marine just said

And so, marine, would you mind posting a link to this new pistol stabilizing brace you mentioned?


And just to chip in a bit more, i do think the idea of building your own with one of their barrels for the purpose of home defense is a neat idea, kind of a cool thing for the guy who already has everything, or who just really wants a short AR for home defense that doubles as a neat toy/talking point.

All that being said, I'll probably pass. But good for them for providing us more options. I hope it works out for them.

[WannabeMiculek]

Nice little semi-auto musket, a little overpriced though.

[marine6680]

Here is the link to the new brace.

Clicky here

[DubC-Hicks]

I was going to get the Shockwave blade kit for my current pistol build, but now I'll definitely be getting that.

[Chainsaw.]

$2000 to save a $200 tax stamp? Dumb.

[O4L]

I had no idea an adjustable brace was legal.

Link to actual product.

https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/sba3/

[TruthTellers]

I like anything that avoids a tax stamp, so I like this, but I won't be buying one because I got better sense than that.

For a gun with an effective range of about 50 yards, there is absolutely no reason for it to be in .223 or .300 BLK. A 9mm or larger pistol caliber would work just fine there's a high likelihood that once the bullet hits the body, it's going to start tumbling immediately because there's no rotational stabilization, so the larger the projectile, the better it will be, and since the max range is so short, a rifle cartridge isn't necessary.

I'm a big proponent of short barrel rifles and shotguns for home defense because they're faster to aim and are closer to the body so an enemy can't grab that long barrel and yank it away from you, so I like the concept, but I don't see what this does better than a pistol braced AR or AK or Glock.

Until the ATF recants on the Sig Brace and being an SBR when shouldered, I don't think the Reformation concept has much merit unless somebody decides to start making 12 gauges with straight grooves in the bore so that they're no longer smoothbores.

That's what I really see as being a real reformation because straight grooves won't spin shot and throw a pattern so big you can't hit a man at 5 yards. Plus, there will probably be some heat dissipation by using grooves in a shotgun bore and maybe fin stabilized slugs could become more accurate at longer ranges.

So, there's a lot of possibilities for the concept in shotguns, but not rifles.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

Until the ATF recants on the Sig Brace and being an SBR when shouldered

They already did that a while ago.

[the possum]

Until the ATF recants on the Sig Brace and being an SBR when shouldered, I don't think the Reformation concept has much merit unless somebody decides to start making 12 gauges with straight grooves in the bore so that they're no longer smoothbores.

That's what I really see as being a real reformation because straight grooves won't spin shot and throw a pattern so big you can't hit a man at 5 yards. Plus, there will probably be some heat dissipation by using grooves in a shotgun bore and maybe fin stabilized slugs could become more accurate at longer ranges.

This occurred to me as well. I've always wanted some kind of 20 gauge pistol (as in, something that actually handles like a pistol rather than a sawn-off shotgun such as the Shockwave), but don't want to deal with BATF hassles.

[Double Naught Spy]

$2000 to save a $200 tax stamp? Dumb.

But people want to beat the government and will do dumb things to accomplish this.